“Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists.” – Daniel Suelo
When I first heard the story of Daniel Suelo, I was immediately intrigued. After all, Daniel lives entirely without money and has done so for the past 12 years. In 2000, he put his entire life savings in a phone booth, walked away, and has lived moneyless ever since. Most frequently, he lives in the caves and wilderness of Utah where he eats wild vegetation, scavenges roadkill, pulls food from dumpsters, and is sometimes fed by friends and strangers. Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts.
I found myself very interested in hearing what he has learned from the experience and how it might inspire me in my own journey to live with fewer possessions. So I contacted Daniel to see if I could ask him a few questions about his life and what views on money and possessions have shaped his existence. He graciously agreed. This is how our conversation went:
1) Earlier this year, your story was documented in a book titled The Man Who Quit Money. I opened this interview with a brief introduction. Am I missing anything here Daniel? Anything I should be adding to help us get a better understanding of who you are and the life you have chosen to live?
I don’t care for the statement, “Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts,” because it can be construed that I put myself above those who must take food stamps or government handouts. I don’t judge those who do. I merely mention that I don’t take government assistance for the sake of those who might think I’m living on their tax dollars. I do boast about having few possessions and no money, because it’s ironic fun to boast about nothing special (wild creatures, after all, have few possessions or money and it really feels like no big deal), and to boast about what the rest of our commercial society debases.
I will add that I do make a small exception to taking government handouts: I use the public library to maintain my blog, website, do emails, and read books. This does cause ire in people searching for loopholes in my lifestyle. In my blog comments, a woman once responded to their anger by declaring that she pays taxes and doesn’t use the library, and that she donates all her library time to me. Then they were quiet.
2) Thanks so much for taking the time for this interview. I find it interesting that so many of the articles highlighting your story include something similar to this line: Suelo “came from a good family and has been to college. He was not mentally ill, nor an addict. His decision appears to have been an act of free will by a competent adult.” So, for starters, you are clearly not a crazy man. Correct?
A crazy man does not think himself crazy, so my opinion on the matter is meaningless :-) People will have to judge my sanity for themselves.
But it would be nice if we lived in a world that considered it crazy to cause harm to ourselves, others, and our environment or to praise those who do cause such harm. Then we’d have to say we live in a truly crazy civilization. A sane society would consider it crazy to kill living things and destroy food and water supplies in order to amass something that nobody can eat or drink, like gold, silver, and money. It’s crazy to sacrifice reality to the idol of illusion.
3) The thinking that led to your journey into willful moneylessness evolved by degrees during your travels. Could you share with us some of the foundational beliefs that have evolved in your life that led you to make this decision to give up money entirely?
My first thought of living moneyless came when I was a child. In my Evangelical Christian upbringing, I wondered why, if we were followers of Jesus, we didn’t practice his teachings–namely giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward (money and barter), but giving freely and receiving freely.
When I left home for college, I studied other religions and found that all the world’s major religions teach giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward. If all the separated witnesses are saying the same thing, it must be true. Ironically, few practice the one thing they all agree upon in word. What would happen if we actually practiced this stuff, I thought.
My dad also took us camping a lot, and I was a nature freak. I couldn’t help but see how perfectly balanced nature was, and it ran on no money. Why, then, couldn’t we?
As an adult, I thought it through more thoroughly. Nature’s economy is a pay-it-forward economy. This means one sows, another reaps, ad infitum. For example, a bear takes a raspberry, and the raspeberry bush demands nothing in return. The Bear takes with zero sense of obligation, zero guilt. The bear then poops somewhere else, not only providing food for soil organisms, but also propagating raspberry seeds. You never see 2 wild creatures consciously bartering. There are no accountants worrying what the bush will get in return. This is exactly why it works, because nobody knows how it works! There is no consciousness of credit and debt in nature. Consciousness of credit and debt is knowledge of good and evil, valuing one thing and devaluing another. Consciousness of credit and debt is our fall from Grace. Grace means gratis, free gift.
My next impetus for living moneyless came from observing the world economy and politics. Do our economy and politics function well? It’s self-evident, isn’t it?
My next impetus for living moneyless was to find authenticity for myself. To do out of one’s heart is to be real. To do for somebody, expecting something from them, is ulterior motivation, which is to not be real, which is to prostitute oneself.
My last impetus for living moneyless was to heal myself. Okay, I guess I’ll talk about my craziness. To heal myself was to first see myself as crazy, and only them could I become free of craziness. I was suffering clinical depression. Mental illness is rooted in having unnecessary, thoughts and to let go of unnecessary thoughts is to free oneself from mental illness. This is basic Buddhist philosophy. It is the philosophy of all the ancient religions. To cling to thoughts is to possess thoughts and this outwardly manifests itself in having unnecessary physical possessions. We accumulate what we don’t need out of fear and anxiety. This is true craziness. Unnecessary thoughts and unnecessary physical possessions (including possessing people) are inextricably linked. To accumulate unnecessary possessions is not to live in abundance, as we’re led to believe, but is to live in scarcity. Why would we have too much stuff if we believed the universe was abundant? Why would we worry if we weren’t crazy? Worry is simply lack of faith, faith that everything we need is in the here and now.
4) Your spirituality is clearly an important part of your journey. In what ways, have your spiritual beliefs strengthened you for this journey and lifestyle?
I mentioned above that this is about faith. Faith is eliminating unnecessary thought, trusting that everything we need comes as we need it, whether it is the right thoughts or the right possessions. Faith is being grounded in the Eternal Present. This is the common truth of the world’s religions.
5) What are some of the most important lessons about money/people/society you have personally learned over the past 12 years? And did any of these lessons surprise you?
Most important is that I’ve learned our true nature lives moneyless, giving freely and receiving freely. Even the most staid CEO is human underneath, and gives and receives freely with friends and family. By cultivating this nature in myself, I can see it in others, and it can be cultivated in others. When our real selves are cultivated, the gift economy is cultivated, our unreal selves (based on ulterior motivation) and all the nonsense drops away.
I have been surprised at the intensely angry reaction thousands of people have had at my living moneyless. It used to bother me, but now I realize that anger doesn’t come from people’s true nature, but from the facade they build up. The facade is threatened by reality. Who wants to hear that the basis of our commercial civilization is an illusion? Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists. Money is not a physical substance, but merely a belief in the head. Money is credit, and credit literally means belief (e.g. credibility). Money is literally a creed, the most agreed-upon creed, or religion, in the world. And what fundamentalists won’t get angry if you question their creed?
6) The reality of today’s society is that most people will never make the full leap into moneylessness like you have. Do you believe that your lifestyle still offers important inspiration for individuals and families? And if so, in what ways?
As I said, we all live moneyless at our core, in our everyday actions with friends, family, and even strangers. People tell me almost every day that they find living this way inspiring and even comforting. Even if people don’t intend on giving up money, they can still find that it isn’t the end of the world if they lose their money. If you are not religious, it is comforting to be reminded that life has flourished in balance for millions of years without money, and why should it fall apart without money now? Nature evolved you from an amoeboid to a human over millions of years, with zero money, so why should nature give up on you now? How is it that, when natural disasters (tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis) hit towns and cities, people suddenly forget about money and start helping each other? It’s comforting that we have a true nature beneath the falseness and ulterior motivation of commercial civilization.
And if you are religious, it’s comforting to know there is profound truth at the core of your religion (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Sikh) that actually works if you practice it, that it isn’t all a lie. If we don’t practice the core truth of giving up possessions and ulterior motivation that every religion teaches, then of course our religion becomes a destructive lie, as we see all around us.
7) What are the practical steps individuals can take to free themselves from their pursuit (and bondage) to money – even if they will never live entirely moneyless?
People get overwhelmed unless they realize that all the tools they have are here and now, and steps can be taken right here and now.
Everybody, no matter how entrenched they are in the money system, can freely give and freely receive. Freely giving and freely receiving is our true nature, is true human-ness. And everybody is human. As I said earlier, it’s about being real, cultivating our true nature, and everything else falls into place, and all the falsehood drops away, no matter what station in life people are in. Even if somebody is totally skeptical about what I am doing, I challenge them to make it their goal to be totally real, with themselves and with every human interaction, and I propose they will then know whether or not I’m living a pipe dream.
Somebody once commented that our cities and towns could not function without money. But I say they and the world can’t function right now in the present system.
Take classic American suburbia, for example. People don’t know their neighbors, and everybody has their own cars, computers, TVs, lawn mowers, washing machines, etc, etc, as well as stockpiles of food and land they could grow food on. All we need is right here, but the only thing that’s holding us back is not physical reality, but belief, dogma. What if we actually spoke to our neighbors and agreed to share, like we learned in kindergarten and in church? What if we realized we could share cars, computers, washing machines, have dinners together, etc, which would not only save us expense, but would save expense on the environment, and, as a bonus, put smiles on our lonely faces? Then cities and technology would start serving us, rather than us serving them. But what’s holding us back? Not reality, not scarcity, but only our thinking!
As far as going all the way and living without money, people often ask me to teach them survival skills. Often I feel like I don’t know many skills, that it’s really about determination and getting up the confidence more than actual skill. Sometimes I tell folks to imagine something really silly: what if somebody offered you a million dollars to live without money for a year? I guarantee most people would figure out how to do it, skilled or no. This is about finding a determination, a motivation greater than a million dollars!
8) I’m curious how concerned you are about spreading this message of living free from money. I know you had the book written about you, you maintain your website, and you have agreed to this interview and various others. Is there a message you believe you have inside that is important to get out? And do you look forward to your story continuing to spread?
Yes, I now have a strong urge to spread the message. At first I just wanted to live my own life, whether or not anybody else took notice or not. Then I realized a message was errupting in me that I could no more suppress than an erupting volcano. Our society is not sustainable and we are not only heading rapidly into, but most the world has already reached disaster, due directly to our being trapped by our own beliefs. I want to shout this out to the world. But talk isn’t enough. It must be talk with action, right now. We could debate whether or not Paul Revere was trying to gain attention for himself, or we could simply take notice that the British are invading and we have to get off our butts!
Thanks so much for your time Daniel, I really do appreciate it. Your experience is unique – at least, in our society. As a result, it provides each of us an opportunity to reevaluate your own opinions and views on how we choose to live. And for that, I am very thankful.
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To discover more about Daniel’s specific journey or find the answers to the questions swirling in your head, I’ll refer you to the FAQ on his website.
But before you leave, what parts of Daniel’s story resonated most with you? Did you discover any new insight or inspiration during the interview? Let us know in the comment section below. I’m interested to hear how his story is challenging others.
Adam Macauley says
This is such a great interview!! what a wise man. This Interview will be a great resource for anyone trying to adopt a simpler lifestyle and live with less. With all the information that circles minimalism and simple living this interview provides some really new insights for me and some really challenging points. I really love his website haha! its not exactly a design masterpiece, but I think that is what really gives it some charm, that and the amount of information will keep me busy. It goes to show that content matters.
joshua becker says
I found his website fascinating. So much information there. I do appreciate his thoroughness. No shortcuts – especially in his FAQ section.
Suelo says
@JonathanJK &
@Megyn @MinimalistMommi
Here’s a portion from an essay in my website, to address your comments.
https://sites.google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/Home/our-fall-from-grace–our-departure-from-gratis
Beware, it’s not comfortable to think about these things. But we must:
“Natural Selection
But I’m not naive. Yes, there’s plenty of struggle and conflict in nature, but it shouldn’t be any other way! It’s no more possible to eliminate struggle and conflict as to erase negative charges of electrons! There is enough struggle and death-balance to be challenging, which is exactly what life needs, what we need, but it is not all-consuming as the nature flicks would have you believe. In nature, struggle and conflict is in perfect balance with ease and play, otherwise life wouldn’t have survived in beauty and harmony for millions of years. We need struggle and conflict as much as we need food. In fact, food is struggle and conflict. “This is my body: take, eat.” Is there insufferable boredom in nature that you find in our gilded cages of commercial civilization? Will you find a dog barking piteously and incessantly out of boredom and loneliness in nature? Will you find in nature a tiger pacing back and forth, chewing off her own fur, making bald spots, as you do in zoos? I know I would rather be dead and extinct than be embalmed alive in a zoo or on a chain in somebody’s back yard.
Nature abhors prolonged suffering, and naturally selects it out. Commercial civilization thrives on prolonged suffering. How many times have you ever seen a malnourished or obese animal in nature? If, on the rare occasion you might, it will be immediately selected out. But commercial civilization not only coddles and encourages chronic illness and faulty genes, but it passes them on from generation to generation. And we call nature cruel.”
Megyn @MinimalistMommi says
Actually there is a blatant untruth in your argument. Stress is alive and well in the animal kingdom. And, unlike your argument, stress continues to grow the more social an animal becomes. Please check out Robert Sapolsky’s work. If stress was not beneficial, why would be it still be around in every social group we see? Granted, it’s partly because of Sapolsky’s studies that we understand the negative effects of stress, but it still exists in droves in the social animal world. Your argument just doesn’t hold up in that regard.
Suelo says
When did I ever say there was no stress in nature? Aren’t I agreeing with you that struggle (stress) is what life needs? I’ll repaste what I said above:
“Yes, there’s plenty of struggle and conflict in nature, but it shouldn’t be any other way! It’s no more possible to eliminate struggle and conflict as to erase negative charges of electrons! There is enough struggle and death-balance to be challenging, which is exactly what life needs, what we need, but it is not all-consuming as the nature flicks would have you believe.”
There’s a vast difference between everyday conflicts (including stresses) and prolonged suffering. We eliminate everyday conflicts and the cost we pay is prolonged suffering. Just look around.
We can be so looking through microscopes we can’t see life for what it is. Again, compare our “civilization” with wild nature: how often do you see a malnurished or obese wild animal (I’m not talking domestic)? How often do you see chronic illness? How often do you see genetic disorders passed down generation to generation?
Megyn @MinimalistMommi says
You said there was no prolonged illness or stress, but Sapolsky’s research prevents sufficient evidence otherwise. Prolonged stress and subsequent illnesses are not as rampant in animal communities as in human society. However, you also have to consider that are social groupings are drastically larger than that of any other social animal. Even chimps usually max out at around 50 in a group. When you only have to deal with possibly 100 members of your species in your entire life time, it’s easier to get along. However, our society is nowhere near having to deal anything close to that. It’s makes perfectly logical sense that just being around such an extreme number of the same species will add to the number of people dealing with stress and related conditions.
As for obese animals, you do rarely see that in nature but only because food is typically so scarce. Animals generally don’t have enough energy to put into finding additional food. Put any animal in a situation with abundant food, and you will find obesity. Wild or not.
Most of your argument has nothing to do with money, but everything to do with social structure. Even if we became more of a socialist society, you will still have war, rape, thievery, and so forth. No
Megyn @MinimalistMommi says
(sorry computer got wonky) …We will never get to a point where every single person will get along and cooperate. It’s not how the wild animals work, and it’s not how we work. Adding money or detracting money will not change our genetics.
Suelo says
“As for obese animals, you do rarely see that in nature but only because food is typically so scarce.”
If this were the case, you would find undernourished or malnourished wild animals in the wild. A wild animal knows when to quit, even in times of abundance. Get out of textbooks, go out in nature and observe!
It was also once believed true hunter-gatherers (not primitive agriculturists who practice trade economy), such as the Kung bushmen & the Hadza, lived in a world of scarcity, scraping by for existence. After all, they live in some of the world’s harshest environments. Then anthropologists actually began living with them & studying them, finding them to live most their time in leisure (15 or so hours of “work” per week)! See Marshal Salin’s “The Original Affluent Society.” When you eat proper nutrition, of your local environment, you only eat until you are satisfied, then you quit, as you see in any wild animal, no matter the abundance.
“Animals generally don’t have enough energy to put into finding additional food. Put any animal in a situation with abundant food, and you will find obesity. Wild or not.”
We see examples of this in captive & domestic animals, spoiled by commercial foods, but where are the examples of this among wild animals in any environment on earth??
I agree that overpopulation causes stress. Natural selection takes care of overpopulation. Control of credit and debt side-steps natural selection. Human populations remained in balance until the advent of agriculture, which by its very nature is control of credit and debt (sow and reap, rather than the pay it forward economy of wild nature). With agriculture came the concept of possession, comodification of food, which created the ideas of scarcity programed into us since childhood, which we impose on our world. The very nature of commercial economy couldn’t function without creating the illusion of scarcity. When one takes more than he/she needs (excess, possession), others get less than they need (scarcity).
I’m not talking dreamy eutopia (ideology) but reality. Look around. Scarcity thinking is the ideology, the basis of our economics.
Megyn @ MinimalistMommi says
I feel like what either of us is doing is hypothesizing using the scientific information each of us know. I could go on providing information and studies about selfish hoarding (look at rodents & birds), reasons why wild animals aren’t obese, and provide information about malnourishment rampant in the wild, but I don’t think it will do a damn thing. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Michael says
There is misinterpretation of evolution. Evolution is information building on information (i plus i). The energy transferred through evolution is propagated hierarchically which then overlaps to produce a rhizomatic (aka semi-lattice structure). The more complete formula would then read (i plus i)^h.
We often hear about “survival of the fittest” and “natural selection” which I believe are concepts co-opted by the robber barons during Darwin’s time and now by corporate executives and republican ideologues to get more productivity out of their minions to serve their both their misguided conceptions and personal greed.
Instead what we see are hierarchical information processing systems “trees” that are continually growing not pruned. There is plenty of genetic evidence to support that mutations and novelty outpace the pruning of natural selection. Problematic social systems ignore the support of lower hierarchical structures which I call integrated complexity (IC). My definition of IC is actually just a more specific observation of the more vertically connected branches of the semi-lattice that Chris Alexander talks about in his 1965 essay “A City Is Not A Tree”. By ignoring the lower hierarchical structures potentials for evolution are hindered and the time constraints to remain sustainable on this planet may be shorter than previously thought. If we follow our spiritual teachings we are simply on a directional path to reunification with whatever set the laws of physics into motion.
Here is an example of information building on information with overlapping hierarchical networks forming a semi-lattice. The semi-lattice connections that are vertical are responsible for a strengthening of the structure which I call integrated complexity.
(i + i)^h & IC
Sons of Kenyan Village Build First Clinic – ABC News
http://tinyurl.com/nn6s8t
Jen says
This seems like such a great idea, ’til I really get into thinking about things like…healthcare. Eventually, most of us need medical assistance, even if we’re REALLY lucky. I wonder how he’ll cover that cost…
Annie Kip says
Really interesting! I think about minimalism (and read your blog!) and am working to make my life simpler and simpler (even as my kids get older and things seem to get more and more complicated!). This look at one end of the spectrum is really helpful. I would like to mention your interview – and create a link to this post – as well as share my own thoughts about it on my blog. I am relatively new to blogging, so please let me know if there is some blog etiquette I may be missing. You are one of the few blogs I read regularly and I really admire the way you have made your life work for you.
Thanks!
joshua becker says
You are missing no blog etiquette Annie. No permission needed. Links make the Internet work. I’ll look forward to reading your thoughts on the interview. Let me know when you post it.
Megyn @MinimalistMommi says
This interview/topic strikes a lot of discord in my head. I’ve had similar ambitions as a youth. I wanted to give up everything and just live off nature. Like Daniel, I felt that nature was perfectly in balance and non-human animals had it right. However, after studying animal behavior (my degree), I realized that we are just animals with our own set of problems, and no animal, humans included, have it “right”. So many species do horrible things: thievery, rape, murder, war. If we were to truly follow our closest living “relatives”, we would see that there is so much bad out there. What I take from nature is to try to not take more than I need. However, I also realize that in order to get away from the “bad” animal practices, I also have to take some of the human advancements we do have. Neither situation is win-win (Daniel’s v. “typical” Americans). I truly believe it’s about learning from nature to better our own species, which includes times when we have to change our more animalistic behaviors.
Sarah says
I’m so glad you did this interview. I’ve been a fan of Suelo for years and it’s exciting to see his message reaching a wider audience.
joshua becker says
It was my pleasure Sarah. I’m glad he agreed. I’m also glad he feels “a message erupting” inside of him. I tend to agree.
Laura says
I found this article very interesting Joshua, thanks for sharing Daniel’s story! I have to agree with BV that for us females, going entirely moniless isn’t as easy an option, but I don’t necessarily believe his perspective was on not consuming but rather on the empahsis that today’s society places on the possessions we all clamor for (myself most definitely!) If I had to pick one statement that resonated with me it would be:
“Take classic American suburbia, for example. People don’t know their neighbors, and everybody has their own cars, computers, TVs, lawn mowers, washing machines, etc, etc, as well as stockpiles of food and land they could grow food on…. What if we realized we could share cars, computers, washing machines, have dinners together, etc, which would not only save us expense, but would save expense on the environment, and, as a bonus, put smiles on our lonely faces?”
I realize this is a very communal style of living, but I for one know that with my current lifestyle of personal possessions – said car, television, computer, etc.- I rarely have any need to go out and socialize with another if I chose not to. How many friends and neighbors have I missed sharing life with because I can live a comfortable existence right in my own home???
Kathleen @ Frugal Portland says
What an interesting take — I don’t think I could do it, though, especially the roadkill part. You’re right, there is a lot to learn from someone who takes a completely different approach.
BV says
We would still have people who want to be doctors, just a totally different way of paying for it. We all need medical care, generally speaking, at some point.
Reality says
The are 2 core reason why people want riches: 1) they don’t want to worry about working anymore 2) not being lonely. Laziness coupled with the knowledge that a big backyard with a BBQ center and a swimming pool can find you lots of friends keeps us wanting more. However, if everyone became like Daniel who would want to suffer through 4 years of medical school? Where is the incentive? Where do we go for medical help if everyone is essentially a bum? We as humans need incentive. Even if u search history, even if you believe humans existed billions of years ago (although written history goes back about 30,000 years) humans bartered! Everything has a price and a cost. Without incentive society falls apart.
JENNIFER says
If your SUFFERING through 4 years of Medical school, its a job and not a vocation or passion. If we where a moneyless society then people would be drawn to work that fullfilled them and not need to be paid with money or goods.
As for the history of barter, thats just history and we are conditioned to think I cannot do this if I donnot receive something in return.