“Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists.” – Daniel Suelo
When I first heard the story of Daniel Suelo, I was immediately intrigued. After all, Daniel lives entirely without money and has done so for the past 12 years. In 2000, he put his entire life savings in a phone booth, walked away, and has lived moneyless ever since. Most frequently, he lives in the caves and wilderness of Utah where he eats wild vegetation, scavenges roadkill, pulls food from dumpsters, and is sometimes fed by friends and strangers. Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts.
I found myself very interested in hearing what he has learned from the experience and how it might inspire me in my own journey to live with fewer possessions. So I contacted Daniel to see if I could ask him a few questions about his life and what views on money and possessions have shaped his existence. He graciously agreed. This is how our conversation went:
1) Earlier this year, your story was documented in a book titled The Man Who Quit Money. I opened this interview with a brief introduction. Am I missing anything here Daniel? Anything I should be adding to help us get a better understanding of who you are and the life you have chosen to live?
I don’t care for the statement, “Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts,” because it can be construed that I put myself above those who must take food stamps or government handouts. I don’t judge those who do. I merely mention that I don’t take government assistance for the sake of those who might think I’m living on their tax dollars. I do boast about having few possessions and no money, because it’s ironic fun to boast about nothing special (wild creatures, after all, have few possessions or money and it really feels like no big deal), and to boast about what the rest of our commercial society debases.
I will add that I do make a small exception to taking government handouts: I use the public library to maintain my blog, website, do emails, and read books. This does cause ire in people searching for loopholes in my lifestyle. In my blog comments, a woman once responded to their anger by declaring that she pays taxes and doesn’t use the library, and that she donates all her library time to me. Then they were quiet.
2) Thanks so much for taking the time for this interview. I find it interesting that so many of the articles highlighting your story include something similar to this line: Suelo “came from a good family and has been to college. He was not mentally ill, nor an addict. His decision appears to have been an act of free will by a competent adult.” So, for starters, you are clearly not a crazy man. Correct?
A crazy man does not think himself crazy, so my opinion on the matter is meaningless :-) People will have to judge my sanity for themselves.
But it would be nice if we lived in a world that considered it crazy to cause harm to ourselves, others, and our environment or to praise those who do cause such harm. Then we’d have to say we live in a truly crazy civilization. A sane society would consider it crazy to kill living things and destroy food and water supplies in order to amass something that nobody can eat or drink, like gold, silver, and money. It’s crazy to sacrifice reality to the idol of illusion.
3) The thinking that led to your journey into willful moneylessness evolved by degrees during your travels. Could you share with us some of the foundational beliefs that have evolved in your life that led you to make this decision to give up money entirely?
My first thought of living moneyless came when I was a child. In my Evangelical Christian upbringing, I wondered why, if we were followers of Jesus, we didn’t practice his teachings–namely giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward (money and barter), but giving freely and receiving freely.
When I left home for college, I studied other religions and found that all the world’s major religions teach giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward. If all the separated witnesses are saying the same thing, it must be true. Ironically, few practice the one thing they all agree upon in word. What would happen if we actually practiced this stuff, I thought.
My dad also took us camping a lot, and I was a nature freak. I couldn’t help but see how perfectly balanced nature was, and it ran on no money. Why, then, couldn’t we?
As an adult, I thought it through more thoroughly. Nature’s economy is a pay-it-forward economy. This means one sows, another reaps, ad infitum. For example, a bear takes a raspberry, and the raspeberry bush demands nothing in return. The Bear takes with zero sense of obligation, zero guilt. The bear then poops somewhere else, not only providing food for soil organisms, but also propagating raspberry seeds. You never see 2 wild creatures consciously bartering. There are no accountants worrying what the bush will get in return. This is exactly why it works, because nobody knows how it works! There is no consciousness of credit and debt in nature. Consciousness of credit and debt is knowledge of good and evil, valuing one thing and devaluing another. Consciousness of credit and debt is our fall from Grace. Grace means gratis, free gift.
My next impetus for living moneyless came from observing the world economy and politics. Do our economy and politics function well? It’s self-evident, isn’t it?
My next impetus for living moneyless was to find authenticity for myself. To do out of one’s heart is to be real. To do for somebody, expecting something from them, is ulterior motivation, which is to not be real, which is to prostitute oneself.
My last impetus for living moneyless was to heal myself. Okay, I guess I’ll talk about my craziness. To heal myself was to first see myself as crazy, and only them could I become free of craziness. I was suffering clinical depression. Mental illness is rooted in having unnecessary, thoughts and to let go of unnecessary thoughts is to free oneself from mental illness. This is basic Buddhist philosophy. It is the philosophy of all the ancient religions. To cling to thoughts is to possess thoughts and this outwardly manifests itself in having unnecessary physical possessions. We accumulate what we don’t need out of fear and anxiety. This is true craziness. Unnecessary thoughts and unnecessary physical possessions (including possessing people) are inextricably linked. To accumulate unnecessary possessions is not to live in abundance, as we’re led to believe, but is to live in scarcity. Why would we have too much stuff if we believed the universe was abundant? Why would we worry if we weren’t crazy? Worry is simply lack of faith, faith that everything we need is in the here and now.
4) Your spirituality is clearly an important part of your journey. In what ways, have your spiritual beliefs strengthened you for this journey and lifestyle?
I mentioned above that this is about faith. Faith is eliminating unnecessary thought, trusting that everything we need comes as we need it, whether it is the right thoughts or the right possessions. Faith is being grounded in the Eternal Present. This is the common truth of the world’s religions.
5) What are some of the most important lessons about money/people/society you have personally learned over the past 12 years? And did any of these lessons surprise you?
Most important is that I’ve learned our true nature lives moneyless, giving freely and receiving freely. Even the most staid CEO is human underneath, and gives and receives freely with friends and family. By cultivating this nature in myself, I can see it in others, and it can be cultivated in others. When our real selves are cultivated, the gift economy is cultivated, our unreal selves (based on ulterior motivation) and all the nonsense drops away.
I have been surprised at the intensely angry reaction thousands of people have had at my living moneyless. It used to bother me, but now I realize that anger doesn’t come from people’s true nature, but from the facade they build up. The facade is threatened by reality. Who wants to hear that the basis of our commercial civilization is an illusion? Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists. Money is not a physical substance, but merely a belief in the head. Money is credit, and credit literally means belief (e.g. credibility). Money is literally a creed, the most agreed-upon creed, or religion, in the world. And what fundamentalists won’t get angry if you question their creed?
6) The reality of today’s society is that most people will never make the full leap into moneylessness like you have. Do you believe that your lifestyle still offers important inspiration for individuals and families? And if so, in what ways?
As I said, we all live moneyless at our core, in our everyday actions with friends, family, and even strangers. People tell me almost every day that they find living this way inspiring and even comforting. Even if people don’t intend on giving up money, they can still find that it isn’t the end of the world if they lose their money. If you are not religious, it is comforting to be reminded that life has flourished in balance for millions of years without money, and why should it fall apart without money now? Nature evolved you from an amoeboid to a human over millions of years, with zero money, so why should nature give up on you now? How is it that, when natural disasters (tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis) hit towns and cities, people suddenly forget about money and start helping each other? It’s comforting that we have a true nature beneath the falseness and ulterior motivation of commercial civilization.
And if you are religious, it’s comforting to know there is profound truth at the core of your religion (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Sikh) that actually works if you practice it, that it isn’t all a lie. If we don’t practice the core truth of giving up possessions and ulterior motivation that every religion teaches, then of course our religion becomes a destructive lie, as we see all around us.
7) What are the practical steps individuals can take to free themselves from their pursuit (and bondage) to money – even if they will never live entirely moneyless?
People get overwhelmed unless they realize that all the tools they have are here and now, and steps can be taken right here and now.
Everybody, no matter how entrenched they are in the money system, can freely give and freely receive. Freely giving and freely receiving is our true nature, is true human-ness. And everybody is human. As I said earlier, it’s about being real, cultivating our true nature, and everything else falls into place, and all the falsehood drops away, no matter what station in life people are in. Even if somebody is totally skeptical about what I am doing, I challenge them to make it their goal to be totally real, with themselves and with every human interaction, and I propose they will then know whether or not I’m living a pipe dream.
Somebody once commented that our cities and towns could not function without money. But I say they and the world can’t function right now in the present system.
Take classic American suburbia, for example. People don’t know their neighbors, and everybody has their own cars, computers, TVs, lawn mowers, washing machines, etc, etc, as well as stockpiles of food and land they could grow food on. All we need is right here, but the only thing that’s holding us back is not physical reality, but belief, dogma. What if we actually spoke to our neighbors and agreed to share, like we learned in kindergarten and in church? What if we realized we could share cars, computers, washing machines, have dinners together, etc, which would not only save us expense, but would save expense on the environment, and, as a bonus, put smiles on our lonely faces? Then cities and technology would start serving us, rather than us serving them. But what’s holding us back? Not reality, not scarcity, but only our thinking!
As far as going all the way and living without money, people often ask me to teach them survival skills. Often I feel like I don’t know many skills, that it’s really about determination and getting up the confidence more than actual skill. Sometimes I tell folks to imagine something really silly: what if somebody offered you a million dollars to live without money for a year? I guarantee most people would figure out how to do it, skilled or no. This is about finding a determination, a motivation greater than a million dollars!
8) I’m curious how concerned you are about spreading this message of living free from money. I know you had the book written about you, you maintain your website, and you have agreed to this interview and various others. Is there a message you believe you have inside that is important to get out? And do you look forward to your story continuing to spread?
Yes, I now have a strong urge to spread the message. At first I just wanted to live my own life, whether or not anybody else took notice or not. Then I realized a message was errupting in me that I could no more suppress than an erupting volcano. Our society is not sustainable and we are not only heading rapidly into, but most the world has already reached disaster, due directly to our being trapped by our own beliefs. I want to shout this out to the world. But talk isn’t enough. It must be talk with action, right now. We could debate whether or not Paul Revere was trying to gain attention for himself, or we could simply take notice that the British are invading and we have to get off our butts!
Thanks so much for your time Daniel, I really do appreciate it. Your experience is unique – at least, in our society. As a result, it provides each of us an opportunity to reevaluate your own opinions and views on how we choose to live. And for that, I am very thankful.
—
To discover more about Daniel’s specific journey or find the answers to the questions swirling in your head, I’ll refer you to the FAQ on his website.
But before you leave, what parts of Daniel’s story resonated most with you? Did you discover any new insight or inspiration during the interview? Let us know in the comment section below. I’m interested to hear how his story is challenging others.
Feminist Mum Wife says
Isn’t the coolest thing about Daniel Suelo’s life in the last 12 years people, is that you don’t have to replicate exactly his way of living to live a more ‘humanely honest life’ . A life not dominated by money or monetary policy but one where people give because their is need not because their is a reward .,,,
Teejay VanSlyke says
I just featured this article at the top of my site! Thank you for a fascinating read!
MaryAnn says
Hello to you defenders of Daniel! I feel as if I stepped on an anthill…inflaming everyone, making each scurry about, madly defending something/someone. Hold on!
I should have not used the word ‘real’ in my comments about Mr. Suelo. Of course, what he is and has been doing is quite ‘real’..that is, ‘actual’. I simply meant if he had an actual family….little children, other physical beings WITH him, this experiment would have had a different outcome In My Opinion. It is far easier to follow a life plan, whatever it may be, when one is only concerned with one’s own welfare and day to day living.
Secondly, Joshua, incorrect and ignorant are very different words with very different meanings…your display your own ignorance by using these words interchangeably.
And thank you for your directing me in how I’d probably want to rephrase something I said….I’d suggest you get an editor to help you make your writing more concise and perhaps less “shuddering”. Those who can, write understandably; those who can’t, generalize. I have pointed out my poor choice of using the word ‘real’ without defining it, perhaps you could take some time to examine the words you use.
I am very impressed with Mr. Suelo’s choices and the length of time he has managed to maintain this lifestyle and how he has managed to turn it into a type of creed. Bravo! Enjoy it. Three cheers to Mr. Suelo. We can all learn something from your choices. But I am not going to your web site and read up on all of your ‘homespun’ philosophies because I’ve read it all before. I won’t read your book or ‘follow’ you because you’re pretty ordinary in the grand scheme of things. You are doing your thing, scrounging for food, living sometimes through the goodness of others, sometimes through the berries and roadkill and sleeping in a warmish climate under the stars. you gave away all your money…unusual choice but certainly yours to make.
Try following this lifestyle in, perhaps, Buffalo or North Dakota! Winters are cold there…..your don’t have to go to Alaska to find unbearably cold weather lasting for weeks on end. No berries!
I, like so many others here, am concerned and active in reducing our footprint on this earth which we all share. I agree that it is crazy that every house on the block has a washer and dryer when we would do so much for the planet if we shared and used our resources more wisely. I agree with every conserving idea expressed, with every wasteful activity decried.
And I applaud Mr. Suelo for living his unusual life just like the fellow who walked for 17 years.
Keep up your good life and example, Mr. Suelo. Peace to you and your followers. I’m simply expressing a different opinion. just like Mr. Suelo.
BV says
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don’t want to re-write what Joshua wrote, but I’d add that your response tothis post does only serves to demonstrate your own insecurity and personal issues.
Some people on here have criticised or asked questions about Daniel’s lifestyle, myself included, and that’s no bad thing. However, if you really think that your comment was simply to demonstrate your point of view, I suggest respectfully, that you look again. [I disagree with your viewpoint, btw, but I have no interest in fighting with you. Plus, I don’t think your p.o.v. is what’s really troubling.]
Lena says
BV, thanks for putting that into words, I wasnt able to do so, and I usually hold on to “if you dont have anything nice to say, keep it shut.”
MaryAnn says
Did/does Suelo have dependents, a family, children? One cannot live totally for oneself when one is part of a real family, with real responsibilities to them. Suelo also misses out on the joy of living in a community.
I find it an interesting experiment, living moneyless but it is far from reality. It is also far from the way real families survive. It is a selfish existence in my opinion because he brings nothing to the world, to people.
My other point is, this couldn’t work in colder areas of the world! You can’t find berries in a blizzard! Nor can you sleep without freezing in a snow drift, night after night.
A lovely fairy tale Suelo. All the best in your new business of selling books, speaking engagements and being the latest guru to the masses looking for something new. I wish you well.
Adam Macauley says
Hey MaryAnn
I wouldn’t really consider Daniels life style choice an experiment. Considering he has been living like this for a while I would say that said ‘experiment’ is pretty conclusive! it works for him. As for bringing something to the world!? maybe you should define what you mean by that exactly! Many readers here would argue That Daniel has contributed some value to their life.
Most people are taking more from this world than they are actually giving back. Regardless of the amount of work we do, The amount that we consume is clearly not sustainable. So by abstaining from consuming maybe Daniel is actually giving more to this world by not consuming so much. Maybe you should ask yourself If you’re bringing as much value to the world as you are taking.
As for colder areas of the world, people in colder climates tend to live a little differently to us anyways. the Inuit peoples of Alaska for example live of fishing so I’m sure they are not to concerned with hunting for berries in Blizzards. No one is asking you to move to a colder climate and I am sure the people from colder climates are used to living without excess as it is anyways.
As for your first point I agree Daniel may miss out on the joy of Living In community But he advocates community in this article when He talks about American suburbia.
and modern day community isn’t really much about community until disaster strikes. Otherwise its every man for himself and I think that is truly selfish. While Daniel lives in solitude I don’t think that he is by any means a selfish man. Which brings me to my next point Daniels book is actually not written by him it’s written by Mark Sundeen, Daniel has a message to send to the world and he is not in the business of selling books and speaking engagements. Even in delivering this message to the world he is not out to make money or start a movement and build an online following. He is very sincere in what he is doing.
Power to the masses looking for something new because this world does not work. This world is broken. There are some things that need to be made new. There is some things that need to change. You need not concern yourself with the masses looking for something new, You should be worried about the masses staying in this pathetic rat race, as for me I’m opting out.
-Adam Macauley
Lena says
MaryAnn, I think Adam said it all already, but I have to add this:
are you actually saying that Daniel is not real? Because as far as I see it, he has been living this lifestyle ‘for real’. ;-) living without money might be far away from your reality… but yours is not necessarily the one that is applicable for everyone though. we all have our understanding of “reality”. yours is with money, Daniels is without money, mine is somewhere in the middle. I am sure he is aware that he is quite exceptional in his choices. I however admire him for that. I think it is nowhere near selfish, but the exact opposite. he is reducing his own needs for a better world. I find this very admirable. And for making this thought a living “experiment” as you put it, he did indeed add some value to my life.
essay writing help says
I guess finding useful, reliable information on the internet isn’t hopeless after all.
joshua becker says
MaryAnn,
I think you are completely incorrect with your comment. Ignorant is probably a better word (it just sounds harsh). I could blame myself for not asking the specific question of community to clear up questions such as these, but even a quick look onto his blog reveals a man who does in fact live in relationship with others – so I didn’t feel the need. Daniel writes/speaks often of his family, his friends, and his existing relationships. And even though he lives without money, I think it’s clear to see he brings far greater value into his relationships than most. So to that end, I appreciate you raising the issue so we engage in the conversation, but I do think you could have offered it with a different tone.
Lastly, before I end, I’m not sure what you meant by the phrase: “real family.” Are you claiming that single human beings are not part of “real family?” I shudder to think that’s what you meant… maybe you wanted to phrase that differently? I’ll have to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.
David Hunt says
Holy crap that was an amazing and inspiring read.
Thank you so much!
Robert Casper says
I like this interview, I’ll look at the website. Sometimes I think that I focus on earning money, just so that I can be sure I have “enough”. And in that way money gets removed from the equation and is no longer a concern.
Beth says
Just chiming in to thank the interviewer, and Suelo, for this thought-provoking topic and article!
I’m wondering how you would propose living a money-free life as a married person with two children? Just wondering how having a partner and a family would be possible in this lifestyle? I’ll have to check out your website and book for ideas.
Also, how do vegetarians and vegans take on this lifestyle if they don’t agree with eating meat (roadkill, etc.) and consuming or using other animal products?
Thanks again for sharing this article, and I look forward to checking out your website and book!
FeministMumWife says
Inspirational, comforting & provoking.
Love that Daniel engaged directly with commenters, it gave me the opportunity to understand better the robustness of the underlying philosophy. I am able to freely take from his emerging social philosophy and grow.
The challenges to the written manifestation of Daniel’s philosophy will certainly help it become more robust and therefore more easily understood & accepted by a wider & wider audience. From there individuals, families & communities can apply the robust & well understood philosophy to guide how they live & build their futures.
For me I need to understand how it can be spued in harmony with the instinctive unwavering love & need to protect & ensure my children flourish.
Ka Rawe Daniel !
Anne says
This interview provided a wonderful opportunity for discussion with one of my 10-year old daughters. I plan on discussing it with my other children as well because I believe that it is essential that we discuss such ideas with our children (and model corresponding behavior, of course!). As soon as I heard of the book a while back I recommended it to our library. Thankfully, they decided to purchase it for the good of all interested local library patrons. I look forward to reading it soon!
Poor to Rich a Day at a Time says
If I was not married to a wonderful man , I would be proposing to Suelo! Even as a kid I dreamt of just going off and finding some abandoned cabin in some mountain and finding no use for money and just being part of nature. While as of now we do live in the world that requires money, we live on very little income and have a great life. We are looking forward to giving up money in 4 years after our trip across America on horseback :) Glad I have a hubby that we allow each other to live our dreams no matter how crazy they may seem to everyone else.
Suelo, you are an inspiration and I have been following your story for some time now! Hats off to you for living it.