This past summer, I sat on a panel with Terrence Shulman discussing overshopping and consumerism on Huffington Post Live. As is typically the case, we found time before and after the interview to chat and introduce ourselves. When Terrence told me he worked in the field of Compulsive Theft, Spending, and Hoarding, I knew I wanted to ask him some questions.
In both my inbox and private conversations, I hear the word “hoarder” thrown around often. You probably have too: “My mom was a hoarder,” or “I think my husband might be a hoarder.” I was anxious to ask Terrence some clarifying questions about the word.
But rather than keeping the information to myself, I want to publish it here. I find the topic fascinating. And I think there is great value in Terrence’s insight for all of us to better understand the disorder and how to help.
1. Terrence, thank you so much for joining us. Can you briefly introduce yourself and your story in 2-3 paragraphs?
Thanks. I’m a native Detroiter, married 12 years, no kids, just turned 49 years old and have been an attorney for 22 years and a licensed certified social worker and addictions therapist. I am the Founder/Director of The Shulman Center for Compulsive Theft, Spending and Hoarding.
I am in recovery myself since 1990 for addictive-compulsive shoplifting and stealing and started the support group C.A.S.A. (Cleptomaniacs And Shoplifters Anonymous) in 1992. I am the author or four recovery-related books on the topics of shoplifting, employee theft, shopping/spending, and hoarding.
I got interested in hoarding when my middle brother began exhibiting symptoms of this disorder. Then I got wind of the cable TV shows and found that many of my clients who had problems with stealing and overshopping often hoarded things. I’ve had other relatives and friends who have had hoarding tendencies, too.
I’m always fascinated by human behavior and wanted to learn more so I began reading every book on hoarding, researching online, taking what few seminars there were and have now been counseling hoarders for about 6 years.
2. How long have you been working in the field of Compulsive Theft, Spending, and Hoarding? How exactly did you get started?
I’ve been a social worker and addiction therapist since 1997. I started off working at a chemical dependency clinic in Detroit. I was the director of the clinic from 1998-2000. And in 2004, I left to start my own private practice. So, as a therapist, I’ve been working with clients who steal, spend, and hoard for ten years.
But as I’ve previously noted, I’ve been in recovery from addictive-compulsive stealing since 1990 and have at least indirectly helped thousands of people with stealing problems since I started CASA in 1992. We now have four metro-Detroit area chapters and 15 other chapters in various cities in the U.S. as well as both email and phone support groups. It all got started with me hitting bottom in the middle of law school around the time of my second (and, hopefully, last) arrest.
3. The television show, Hoarders, first debuted in 2009. Since then, several others have been filmed and the word “hoarders” became commonplace in American vernacular. In your opinion, are these television shows helpful? Or have they fostered unhealthy misconceptions about hoarding in our society?
There are certainly differences of opinion about the TV shows and I’d say there are pros and cons, but the pros outweight the cons. The fact is, these shows are fairly well-done and they have brought the topic out from under the stone, so to speak, and offer decent glimpses into what the disorder looks like, what’s often the causes of it, and how to best treat it and how not to deal with or treat it.
On the negative side, sometimes the shows can sensationalize things and they tend to show the worst cases (so a moderate or mild hoarder or his family might minimize or discount their own problem and need for help). Also, while the show is realistic in some ways in portraying the long and arduous treatment process (and, to their credit, includes success stories as well as non-success stories), the format of the shows (typically illustrating two cases in an hour) can be misldeading about the treatment process and the results–and there’s not a lot of talk about aftercare.
4. Let’s get practical. I think a member of my family may be a hoarder. What telltale signs should I be looking for? How can I know if he/she is a hoarder or just a packrat that has bought into the consumeristic tendencies of our world?
This is a great question. The same can be asked of any person whose behavior is being questioned; how do I know if I’m a food addict, a drug addict, a gambling addict, a shopping addict, a sex addict, an alcoholic, etc. We have to look at several factors, especially when talking about stuff because most people have stuff and it’s greatly encouraged–by and large–to accumulate, save or collect.
But a hoarder, just like an alcoholic, usually has a long or chronic period of engaging in overaccumulating (whether active by buying and/or passive by not discarding things we’d normally discard) and he/she has a very hard time getting rid of almost anything no matter how apparently useless or valueless (of course, that’s the sticky wicket as most hoarders have a distorted sense of use and value).
Hoarders homes don’t all have to be extremely cluttered or dirty (though they often are and these are some telltale signs) but there usually is some difficulty using parts of the home for their intended uses–even the garage, basement or attic. There are often arguments and fights among family members and efforts to change that fail. Sometimes there’s secret hoarding (even secret storage units). Another difference between a hoarder and a collector is that a collector usually just collects a few different kinds of things and keeps them in an ordely fashion.
5. If my family member is a hoarder, is there anything specific I can do to help? What types of word/actions might be helpful? Are there any common responses to hoarding that may actually be harmful?
Do your research online or elsewhere first to make sure you know what hoarding is and what it isn’t. Read books on the topic. See if there are any local support groups. Even watch the TV shows if you haven’t already. Hoarding is a serious disorder that is now officially recognized as such. It’s often related to unresolved losses and traumas and difficult interpersonal patterns of power and control.
Don’t badger a hoarder and don’t make unilateral attempts to get rid of his/her stuff. Express concerns for the person and how it is negatively impacting you. Offer support and resources for help.
6. How can I know if professional help is required? And if so, how do I even begin to help my loved one recognize the need for it?
I may be biased but if your loved one has hoarding disorder, he/she should always seek professional help. The challenge is that there are limited therapists who specialize in hoarding treatment, relatively few support groups locally, and relatively few books–though there are about ten available.
7. You have mentioned a couple of times to find books related to the subject. Can you recommend the 2 books that would be most helpful? I’m thinking especially for somebody who is trying to better understand the disorder in the life of a loved one.
Yes, I’d recommend, of course, my book Cluttered Lives, Empty Souls published in 2011. And either the book Stuff: Hoarding Disorder and The Meaning of Things by Randy O. Frost and Gail Steketee or their workbook as well.
8. I’m interested to know how hoarding is professionally treated. Could you give us just a brief idea of what someone might expect?
We’re still figuring that out but it’s safe to say it’s a shot-gun approach of specialized therapy (individual, family, couples, and/or group), medication evaluation (a lot of depression, anxiety, OCD, ADHD, bipolar disoder, etc), support groups, reading of books and psychoeducation for the hoarder and his/her family/friends, and a team approach of therapists, professional organizers, movers, and support people often are needed. Aftercare is also important to avoid relapse.
9. You mentioned to me that you do a lot of work with patients via Skype. If one of our readers is interested in finding you, where should I send them? Or, if a reader is looking for help locally in their own community, how might they begin looking for reputable help?
You may send them to me at my websites: Hoarders Anonymous and The Shulman Center. I can assist them either myself or in finding local help.
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I am so very thankful for your help on this topic Terrence. As I mentioned, these are conversations I run into often, but have felt quite inadequate in addressing. I am confident this will be helpful to many: both those who deal with the disorder personally and those who encounter it professionally.
All the best to you and your work.
Many older people tend to hoard, don’t you think? People who lived through war times when things were scarce want to keep everything ‘in case’. Plastic containers of all sizes, glass jars from peanut butter or jam, they’ll smooth out gift wrappings to reuse, keep ends of soap, bits of string, old towels to re-use as cleaning rags (which they don’t use) and the list goes on and on. They also can’t part with useless ornaments or books just because someone gave them. I have a family member who, no matter how you try to help, every flat surface is covered with photographs, ornaments, containers of one sort or another. I am a hoarder too, I hoard old family photographs and memorabilia. I’m the family historian and my hobby is genealogy, and all these items I consider valuable to my work. I like to think of them as a collection, but I’m careful not to let the ‘collecting’ seep into other aspects of my life, as I’m also sentimental about certain items I hold on to. It’s quite a balance.
I am a Gerontology Clinical Nurse Specialist who has encountered many hoarders in classifications from I to V throughout my career. Currently I am the 24/7 caregiver for a family member who is on hospice. The house is large about 20 years old and located in a beautiful vineyard. For the first week, I spent several hours everyday finding items that were clean and usable needed for preparing meals. What I found among the drawers, cabinets, and closets was mice scat, spiders, multiples of the same foods all opened. The same with kitchen equipment. Multiple appliances and tools–many broken–stuffed in between dirty rags, cleaning supplies, receipts and animal hair.
My patient has been physically unable to care for herself for about a year but her collecting and stuffing behavior has been occurring for at least fifty years. What I finally got after several occasions of being chastized for throwing things away was that her stuff represented memories and were important to her for reasons that I couldn’t relate to because my lifestyle is very different. She said, “You are Ms. Clean and I am Ms Piggy.”
With my realization I promised not to throw or give away anything. Now as her life is rapidly slipping away, she is wanting to sort through her areas of memories and begin the process of declutter. She is starting with those areas that she wants given to her family and including the family members in the process. A first for all of them and I am proud of her for this initiation.
Thank you for the clinical discussion and references. I believe that one of the children needs family counseling as I see the collecting and stuffing issue occurring in three generations here.
My mother hoarded papers since at least my childhood in the 1950’s. Without awareness and treatment it doesn’t get better. We had to recycle 40 plus boxes of ruined paperback books. No one needs receipts for auto repairs in the 1980’s in 2014 or boxes and boxes of old calendars and magazines.
When my husband passed away I realized he was an organized hoarder. He had 21 big boxes of mail in his work shop. Each box was marked with the year and had most every piece of mail he got that year, opened and put back into the original envelope with all the additional flyers and everything. I sorted each box and recycled, shredded and kept one small folder of documents.
The thing that always strikes me when I watch any hoarding television show is that even though the people they profile seem to care a great deal about their stuff (sometimes even more than they seem to care about their families), most don’t appear to WANT to live that way – it’s just very painful for them to part with anything. How terrible it must feel to be trapped with a mountain of stuff they can’t bear to part with.
When I watched Buried Alive for few minutes,I never watched it again.There are too many questions in my mind how some people can live like that.I don’t want to be judgmental because I haven’t understood what’s the real reason behind this.Is this a form of sickness,epidemic to some people or what?.I know some of them will say,it’s all started with their experiences and they want to keep something sentimental until this simple thought got worse.A friend one mine has family members who are hoarders and the way she tells me about it,the more I started weeding out items,clothes in our house-monthly.I feel sorry though for some people who are experiencing this because this is not healthy.
My mother is a hoarder (of the worst order). It physically pains her to throw anything away, and she is seriously traumatized if you move or touch anything. The only time her house will be cleared out will be when I do it after she dies. I try not to think about it too much, but it is sad that she is so consumed with her “collections” to worry about the astronomical mess she will leave behind. I, thankfully, am trying to be a minimalist.
I have always been coherent about the things I bring into the house. I know I have a few tendancies to keep things that I may not need. I have to work so hard at my personal growth. Been reading a great group of stories by Catherine Auman, catherineauman.com is her site. It really helps keeping me centered and that helps with things that may lead me into certain aspects that could be hoarding to put things in place of what I have lost. It really helps me.
Thank you so much for sharing this interview Joshua. My Mother is a self-confessed hoarder who is not ready to accept help or to change. She had a traumatic childhood and she knows this is partly to blame for her hoarding addiction. All of the family have tried to help in various ways, and have eventually given up as she gets upset and vulnerable every time we mention it. How can one help a hoarder who is not ready to help herself? I will follow up on some of those references. However, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
Thanks for this interview. It was very helpful as I learned more how to help a family member.
While the interview is interesting I found the lack of person-first language frustrating. Mr. Shulman consistently refers to “a/the hoarder” rather than saying “a person who hoards” or “a person who struggles with hoarding”. We must always remember that people who hoard are, In fact, people first. While their hoarding may be a serious problem, it still should not define these people for us.
My family member who hoards is my family first. Her hoarding is very difficult and impacts our relationship, but loving her and acknowledging all the other things in her life which are positive is one of the best ways that I can support her. (She already has various professionals working with her.) If I were reduce to our relationship to simply focusing on her hoarding, and trying to fix it, there would not be much of a relationship left.
Also, I find his praise of the show “Hoarders” concerning and it takes a full life and focuses on one negative aspect for the cheap entertainment of others – who, in my experience, find the enjoyment in judging that person. I would hate for my family member to be put on display that way because the world would then see her as “a hoarder” rather than the woman, daughter, wife, mother, sister, aunt, grandmother, and friend that she is.
Thanks for the comment Gillian. In my opinion, it would be unfair to assume that Terrence does not value the person behind the problem just because he did not phrase his answers in a person-first tense. He mentions early in the interview that his pursuit of helping people stems from his relationship with his brother and other people he has devoted his life to helping.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound like I was judging him personally. I think he’s shown dedication to helping people, and that speaks volumes. I just think rewording the labels a bit helps everyone remember we’re all people first. :)
I do watch those hoarding shows. I’m a minimalist and watching their homes get cleaned out and liveable again makes me happy. My favorite is Obsessive Compulsive Cleaners. They pair a clean freak with a hoarder and it helps both of them. It really is amazing. This was an excellent interview. I have a few family members who exhibit hoarding symptoms, but it’s really difficult to get people help when they don’t feel like they need it.
Thank you for sharing this interview. My mother was a hoarder (the kind on the TV show), and the impact for me was profound and far-reaching while growing up and into adulthood. I am now a clinical psychologist and have a better understanding of the disorder, but unfortunately, treatment is rarely successful. Your website has brought peace and clarity, as well as joy and satisfaction as I move toward a minimalist lifestyle.
Hoarding is an interesting psychiatric condition consisting of 5 levels, which are expounded upon on Mr. Shulman’s website. The problem with the hoarder shows on now is that they portray level 5 (V) hoarders so that people, like my mother, who is at a level 2 (II) think they don’t really have a problem because they’re “not THAT bad.” But I suppose a hoarder show with someone with less of a problem wouldn’t be quite as compelling.
When I recognized my own tendency to hoard, I took steps to stop this behavior. One of my tools is reading this blog and others like it. It helps me to stay focused on what is really important in my life. Thank you!
I agree you Danielle! This blog has been such an inspiration to me. My problem has mostly been sentimental clutter after death of parents. But – – I’ve made significant progress over the last year and a half!
This is amazing. Thanks for clarifying how to classify who is a hoarder. The word ‘hoarder’ has become so prevalent in everyday usage, that it sometimes doesn’t get defined properly.
I would love to hear more about people who may be hoarders or having hoarding tendencies that don’t fit the mainstream image. The beginning of the article piqued my curiosity on this, but less than a paragraph discussed it.
A great interview! Thanks for sharing!!
Thank you for posting this interview Joshua. The discussions on hoarding are often sarcastic and filled with criticism. A person that exhibits hoarding behavior often has a mental illness..whether diagnosed or not. What may appear to the casual outsider as trash, crap, and junk is the exact opposite to the hoarder. The items are literally like fragments and pieces of their life. I have found your website to be an extremely valuable resource in my own personal battle with mental illness.
Great Q&A, thank you! I find it frustrating when people casually use the hoarder tag, toward themselves or others. People don’t normally point themselves out as alcoholics, drug addicts, kleptomaniacs, or compulsive gamblers in the same way people say they are a hoarder. I wonder why people feel more okay with self-identifying as hoarders (which is a damaging mental condition) than they do about those other conditions?
This is quite a wonderful comment Kimberly. You are right about society’s flippant use of the word. I wish I would have asked Terrence about that.
I would hazard a guess that anyone that is a real hoarder doesn’t identify themselves as such, most appear to refuse to believe they have a problem. Anyone who is brought up in such a household is likely to have learnt to keep the hoarding secret, probably not allowing anyone into the home. I’m happy that hoarding has been recognised as a mental problem. One that causes extreme distress to both the sufferer and to close family. It has given me explanations about my own childhood and lack of relationship with my father. Whilst society is beginning to recognise the pratical problems caused by hoarding, very few recognise the emotional problems both to the sufferer and to the family. In my experience both spouse and children are of far less worth than stuff to the sufferer.
Joshua—I went to a neighborhood estate sale yesterday just to check out the house actually. It was a pretty older home, but it was hoarded. The home was packed, PACKED with 30+ years of accumulation. The house had some built-in benches under the windows. I commented to the estate sales director that those built-ins were pretty. “Never used!” -was her response. Apparently the house was SO cluttered that they had to hull out 2 huge trucks of “junk” just so people could walk through. Also the directors of the sale cleaned for two weeks straight because the possessions up for sale were covered in years of dust. The stuff was so over-priced and it was nothing special. BUT people were buying-buying-buying like crazy! Unreal. The woman homeowner now sits ill in a nursing home…the husband died. What a pretty house they could have enjoyed. I saw some gorgeous wood floors peeking out of the corners of clutter. Sad—on so many levels. Now their old hoard will be hoarded by someone new. Geez. @@ Isn’t it nice not to be a part of stuff like that anymore?! :)