“Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists.” – Daniel Suelo
When I first heard the story of Daniel Suelo, I was immediately intrigued. After all, Daniel lives entirely without money and has done so for the past 12 years. In 2000, he put his entire life savings in a phone booth, walked away, and has lived moneyless ever since. Most frequently, he lives in the caves and wilderness of Utah where he eats wild vegetation, scavenges roadkill, pulls food from dumpsters, and is sometimes fed by friends and strangers. Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts.
I found myself very interested in hearing what he has learned from the experience and how it might inspire me in my own journey to live with fewer possessions. So I contacted Daniel to see if I could ask him a few questions about his life and what views on money and possessions have shaped his existence. He graciously agreed. This is how our conversation went:
1) Earlier this year, your story was documented in a book titled The Man Who Quit Money. I opened this interview with a brief introduction. Am I missing anything here Daniel? Anything I should be adding to help us get a better understanding of who you are and the life you have chosen to live?
I don’t care for the statement, “Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts,” because it can be construed that I put myself above those who must take food stamps or government handouts. I don’t judge those who do. I merely mention that I don’t take government assistance for the sake of those who might think I’m living on their tax dollars. I do boast about having few possessions and no money, because it’s ironic fun to boast about nothing special (wild creatures, after all, have few possessions or money and it really feels like no big deal), and to boast about what the rest of our commercial society debases.
I will add that I do make a small exception to taking government handouts: I use the public library to maintain my blog, website, do emails, and read books. This does cause ire in people searching for loopholes in my lifestyle. In my blog comments, a woman once responded to their anger by declaring that she pays taxes and doesn’t use the library, and that she donates all her library time to me. Then they were quiet.
2) Thanks so much for taking the time for this interview. I find it interesting that so many of the articles highlighting your story include something similar to this line: Suelo “came from a good family and has been to college. He was not mentally ill, nor an addict. His decision appears to have been an act of free will by a competent adult.” So, for starters, you are clearly not a crazy man. Correct?
A crazy man does not think himself crazy, so my opinion on the matter is meaningless :-) People will have to judge my sanity for themselves.
But it would be nice if we lived in a world that considered it crazy to cause harm to ourselves, others, and our environment or to praise those who do cause such harm. Then we’d have to say we live in a truly crazy civilization. A sane society would consider it crazy to kill living things and destroy food and water supplies in order to amass something that nobody can eat or drink, like gold, silver, and money. It’s crazy to sacrifice reality to the idol of illusion.
3) The thinking that led to your journey into willful moneylessness evolved by degrees during your travels. Could you share with us some of the foundational beliefs that have evolved in your life that led you to make this decision to give up money entirely?
My first thought of living moneyless came when I was a child. In my Evangelical Christian upbringing, I wondered why, if we were followers of Jesus, we didn’t practice his teachings–namely giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward (money and barter), but giving freely and receiving freely.
When I left home for college, I studied other religions and found that all the world’s major religions teach giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward. If all the separated witnesses are saying the same thing, it must be true. Ironically, few practice the one thing they all agree upon in word. What would happen if we actually practiced this stuff, I thought.
My dad also took us camping a lot, and I was a nature freak. I couldn’t help but see how perfectly balanced nature was, and it ran on no money. Why, then, couldn’t we?
As an adult, I thought it through more thoroughly. Nature’s economy is a pay-it-forward economy. This means one sows, another reaps, ad infitum. For example, a bear takes a raspberry, and the raspeberry bush demands nothing in return. The Bear takes with zero sense of obligation, zero guilt. The bear then poops somewhere else, not only providing food for soil organisms, but also propagating raspberry seeds. You never see 2 wild creatures consciously bartering. There are no accountants worrying what the bush will get in return. This is exactly why it works, because nobody knows how it works! There is no consciousness of credit and debt in nature. Consciousness of credit and debt is knowledge of good and evil, valuing one thing and devaluing another. Consciousness of credit and debt is our fall from Grace. Grace means gratis, free gift.
My next impetus for living moneyless came from observing the world economy and politics. Do our economy and politics function well? It’s self-evident, isn’t it?
My next impetus for living moneyless was to find authenticity for myself. To do out of one’s heart is to be real. To do for somebody, expecting something from them, is ulterior motivation, which is to not be real, which is to prostitute oneself.
My last impetus for living moneyless was to heal myself. Okay, I guess I’ll talk about my craziness. To heal myself was to first see myself as crazy, and only them could I become free of craziness. I was suffering clinical depression. Mental illness is rooted in having unnecessary, thoughts and to let go of unnecessary thoughts is to free oneself from mental illness. This is basic Buddhist philosophy. It is the philosophy of all the ancient religions. To cling to thoughts is to possess thoughts and this outwardly manifests itself in having unnecessary physical possessions. We accumulate what we don’t need out of fear and anxiety. This is true craziness. Unnecessary thoughts and unnecessary physical possessions (including possessing people) are inextricably linked. To accumulate unnecessary possessions is not to live in abundance, as we’re led to believe, but is to live in scarcity. Why would we have too much stuff if we believed the universe was abundant? Why would we worry if we weren’t crazy? Worry is simply lack of faith, faith that everything we need is in the here and now.
4) Your spirituality is clearly an important part of your journey. In what ways, have your spiritual beliefs strengthened you for this journey and lifestyle?
I mentioned above that this is about faith. Faith is eliminating unnecessary thought, trusting that everything we need comes as we need it, whether it is the right thoughts or the right possessions. Faith is being grounded in the Eternal Present. This is the common truth of the world’s religions.
5) What are some of the most important lessons about money/people/society you have personally learned over the past 12 years? And did any of these lessons surprise you?
Most important is that I’ve learned our true nature lives moneyless, giving freely and receiving freely. Even the most staid CEO is human underneath, and gives and receives freely with friends and family. By cultivating this nature in myself, I can see it in others, and it can be cultivated in others. When our real selves are cultivated, the gift economy is cultivated, our unreal selves (based on ulterior motivation) and all the nonsense drops away.
I have been surprised at the intensely angry reaction thousands of people have had at my living moneyless. It used to bother me, but now I realize that anger doesn’t come from people’s true nature, but from the facade they build up. The facade is threatened by reality. Who wants to hear that the basis of our commercial civilization is an illusion? Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists. Money is not a physical substance, but merely a belief in the head. Money is credit, and credit literally means belief (e.g. credibility). Money is literally a creed, the most agreed-upon creed, or religion, in the world. And what fundamentalists won’t get angry if you question their creed?
6) The reality of today’s society is that most people will never make the full leap into moneylessness like you have. Do you believe that your lifestyle still offers important inspiration for individuals and families? And if so, in what ways?
As I said, we all live moneyless at our core, in our everyday actions with friends, family, and even strangers. People tell me almost every day that they find living this way inspiring and even comforting. Even if people don’t intend on giving up money, they can still find that it isn’t the end of the world if they lose their money. If you are not religious, it is comforting to be reminded that life has flourished in balance for millions of years without money, and why should it fall apart without money now? Nature evolved you from an amoeboid to a human over millions of years, with zero money, so why should nature give up on you now? How is it that, when natural disasters (tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis) hit towns and cities, people suddenly forget about money and start helping each other? It’s comforting that we have a true nature beneath the falseness and ulterior motivation of commercial civilization.
And if you are religious, it’s comforting to know there is profound truth at the core of your religion (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Sikh) that actually works if you practice it, that it isn’t all a lie. If we don’t practice the core truth of giving up possessions and ulterior motivation that every religion teaches, then of course our religion becomes a destructive lie, as we see all around us.
7) What are the practical steps individuals can take to free themselves from their pursuit (and bondage) to money – even if they will never live entirely moneyless?
People get overwhelmed unless they realize that all the tools they have are here and now, and steps can be taken right here and now.
Everybody, no matter how entrenched they are in the money system, can freely give and freely receive. Freely giving and freely receiving is our true nature, is true human-ness. And everybody is human. As I said earlier, it’s about being real, cultivating our true nature, and everything else falls into place, and all the falsehood drops away, no matter what station in life people are in. Even if somebody is totally skeptical about what I am doing, I challenge them to make it their goal to be totally real, with themselves and with every human interaction, and I propose they will then know whether or not I’m living a pipe dream.
Somebody once commented that our cities and towns could not function without money. But I say they and the world can’t function right now in the present system.
Take classic American suburbia, for example. People don’t know their neighbors, and everybody has their own cars, computers, TVs, lawn mowers, washing machines, etc, etc, as well as stockpiles of food and land they could grow food on. All we need is right here, but the only thing that’s holding us back is not physical reality, but belief, dogma. What if we actually spoke to our neighbors and agreed to share, like we learned in kindergarten and in church? What if we realized we could share cars, computers, washing machines, have dinners together, etc, which would not only save us expense, but would save expense on the environment, and, as a bonus, put smiles on our lonely faces? Then cities and technology would start serving us, rather than us serving them. But what’s holding us back? Not reality, not scarcity, but only our thinking!
As far as going all the way and living without money, people often ask me to teach them survival skills. Often I feel like I don’t know many skills, that it’s really about determination and getting up the confidence more than actual skill. Sometimes I tell folks to imagine something really silly: what if somebody offered you a million dollars to live without money for a year? I guarantee most people would figure out how to do it, skilled or no. This is about finding a determination, a motivation greater than a million dollars!
8) I’m curious how concerned you are about spreading this message of living free from money. I know you had the book written about you, you maintain your website, and you have agreed to this interview and various others. Is there a message you believe you have inside that is important to get out? And do you look forward to your story continuing to spread?
Yes, I now have a strong urge to spread the message. At first I just wanted to live my own life, whether or not anybody else took notice or not. Then I realized a message was errupting in me that I could no more suppress than an erupting volcano. Our society is not sustainable and we are not only heading rapidly into, but most the world has already reached disaster, due directly to our being trapped by our own beliefs. I want to shout this out to the world. But talk isn’t enough. It must be talk with action, right now. We could debate whether or not Paul Revere was trying to gain attention for himself, or we could simply take notice that the British are invading and we have to get off our butts!
Thanks so much for your time Daniel, I really do appreciate it. Your experience is unique – at least, in our society. As a result, it provides each of us an opportunity to reevaluate your own opinions and views on how we choose to live. And for that, I am very thankful.
—
To discover more about Daniel’s specific journey or find the answers to the questions swirling in your head, I’ll refer you to the FAQ on his website.
But before you leave, what parts of Daniel’s story resonated most with you? Did you discover any new insight or inspiration during the interview? Let us know in the comment section below. I’m interested to hear how his story is challenging others.
BV says
I wonder what Daniel would do if he was a woman and had periods. Maybe I should ask him myself..
Anyway, Joshua, what a lovely article! Most of us, myself included, aren’t giving up money or lifestyles anytime soon, but I found recently that when I had less money I worried about “meeting up with friends” for a drink because that is expensive. Instead, I had water or coke and had a better time because I stopped thinking about money and focused on the experience of being with my friends. Maybe if we did that more often, we’d be richer and happier. Something for us to learn from Daniel.
Bobbi Shaftoe says
What does having periods have to do with living without money? Danielle ;-) would probably say that there are plenty of natural solutions available all around us. Personally, my last purchase before giving all my money away would be a new moon cup that would last me through menopause. I haven’t purchased any fem supplies since I bought my first one years ago.
Miles Turner says
Well you’re just a dirty schlapper then aren’t you Bobbi?!
joshua becker says
I’m not gonna bother with the feminine questions, but I wanted to mention that I appreciated your response to the article BV because that’s exactly where I was headed with question #6. Given the present reality of our society today, what can we still from you and his journey? I don’t have plans to give up money forever either. But I felt strongly there were important life lessons in his story that could help us in ours. Thanks for your input and practical example of this truth working itself in your life.
BV says
I mentioned periods because they are female only thing, and whilst I certainly do not need or want to go into detail, it’s a highly important practical consideration for a women should she want to follow this example. It isn’t impossible to do, and perhaps only the women want to explore this one, and that’s fine – I didn’t, by the way, write it to make anyone feel uncomfortable, so apologies if so.
And Joshua – I’m glad that you “got” the second point i was making. We can all learn a lot here! Loving the blog, as always :-)
Steven says
Feminine products haven’t always existed. To answer this question about periods, you just have to take a look to the past. What did women do before there were things like tampons and pads? Obviously they survived.
Suelo says
BV –
I’ve traveled with women a few times, & only one clued me in about menstruation. She used socks, washing them regularly.
One of my great inspiration is Peace Pilgrim, a woman who walked for 30 years without money, who carried nothing except her clothes, pencil, paper, comb, toothbrush. But she started at around 50, meaning past her period of periods. I’m a wimp compared to PP, since I still carry backpack & sleeping bag & tarp.
Willow says
Suelo, I’m glad you mentioned Peace Pilgrim. I was going to bring up her journey here too.
http://www.peacepilgrim.org/
BV says
Hi Suelo,
Thanks for the response – I am going to look her up right now.
I certainly don’t think it’s impossible as a woman, it just probably requires thinking it through, first.
I think that you are a great inspiration. Thank you.
Mia says
Hi, you can use the keeper http://www.keeper.com/. I’ve been using it for 7 years or so now and I love it. It’s comfortable (I forget I’m wearing it) and good for the environment. I’ll never go back to disposable pads.
DeAnna says
I don’t live without money, nor do I intend to, but I also don’t give any money to the corporations that profit on trying to convince me that I can’t live without their “feminine hygiene” products. Women lived in nature without access to plastics for a long time. My personal solutions aren’t that primitive, but they do involve washable cotton, and I spend approximately $10 every 10 years on making some new ones. Plenty of info on the internet it you want to look around.
And if you’re talking about more complicated things like pregnancy…well, women have been having babies since long before the invention of money too. That’s how we all got here.
Steven says
Thank you! Women have been surviving for thousands of years without tampons and pads. They’re nice to have, but not a need.
JonathanJK says
While I think this is a fascinating article and really appeals to me (even as an atheist).
What will happen to Daniel if he becomes sick through infection, without the money, it’s a barrier to living a longer life. Does Daniel just accept his fate, even if knowing he could have an extra ten years if he had money?
I’m not trying to nitpick, I think it’s an interesting situation that wasn’t discussed, these things don’t matter as much when we’re younger.
joshua becker says
Here you go Jonathan. He answers that question on his FAQ: https://sites.google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/Home/9–what-will-you-do-when-you-get-old
*Spoiler Alert* You are on the right track.
Crystal T. says
Wow what a very wise and inspirational man. I hope he continues to share his wisdom and journey as there in it lies a lot of truth that people can learn from. He is definitely doing his part in making this world a better place. Thanks for sharing.
Joel Zaslofsky says
Wow Joshua. Thanks a ton for pushing publish on this post!
I love reading about people who are at the “extreme” edge of society. Extreme is in quotes because this is obviously subjective. Many of the people who dare to do what nobody else would do are the kinds of enlightened folks like Daniel.
His thoughts remind me a lot of many schools of religion and philosophy. After reading this I immediately thought about Seneca in his “Letters from a Stoic” when he says:
“There is nothing harsh about having to do without things for which you have ceased to have any craving.”
I’m not sure what I’ll do as a result of reading this post today but I’m confident I’ll be a better person for it.
joshua becker says
Thanks Joel. That quote from Seneca is entirely appropriate. And I don’t think I’ve ever heard it before.
Mitchell Roth says
Thank you for conducting this interview Joshua.
Thank you for imparting your wisdom, Daniel.
“To do out of one’s heart is to be real. To do for somebody, expecting something from them, is ulterior motivation, which is to not be real…”
I really enjoyed the whole interview, but if I had to pick one sentence that impacted me, it would be that one.
I am trying to spend less work (for money) and spend more time on my passions (things I do for free.) I recently paid off all my debt in January, and these have been the best 5 months of my life. I have gained a mindset of abundance. I have more than I will ever need. I am leaving North Dakota in August to slowly backpack south to Brazil. I’m going to explore the gift economy and challenge my view on money. I’m going to tell my story in the form of a web comic. I’m always looking for mentors, and you have introduced me to another one in Daniel. And I really appreciate it!
Have you heard of Heidemarie Schwermer from Germany? She’s been living the last 16 years without money as well.
Thanks again!
joshua becker says
Thanks for adding to this conversation Mitchell. I had not heard of Heidemarie previously. I’ll have to look her up.
On a personal note, you are leaving North Dakota to backpack Brazil? What are you crazy? Just kidding, of course. I actually lived in North Dakota for 4 years during high school. And congratulations on getting out of debt!
Mitchell Roth says
There is a documentary on Heidemarie called “Living without Money.” I purchased it and enjoyed watching it a few times. If you’re interested, let me know where to send it and I’ll pass it on to you.
I am leaving North Dakota — first stop, Burning Man! ND is a great place, I’m sure I’ll come back at some point. I grew up in Williston, but since high school I’ve lived in Jamestown. Where did you go to high school?
joshua becker says
Wahpeton High School in Wahpeton, ND. Good times. Plenty of sporting events against Williston back in the early 90s when I attended.
sos says
I loved this interview. He is so awesome! Some of things he said touched a chord deep in my heart.
Paul Rumohr says
Money and possessions bring us pleasant distractions and entertainments but also unfortunately can serve to distract us from deeper connections with others and the joys of the present moment.
It’s really impressive that Daniel was able to pull himself out of his funk by deciding to go “cold turkey” on money and disconnect himself from our modern economy. At the same time I feel that he didn’t do it to be totally anti social and isolate himself in a cave, but rather to test the ancient wisdom that we are much more than our cars, houses and bank accounts.
I’ll take his challenge to be more real with my relationships with others- to see what happens when I try to give and take more (graciously) from others.
Erik Johnson says
Very interesting read. Always nice to take a step back and see someone who reminds us that nature is still a lot more big, powerful and important than any concepts that man can create.
samantha says
An inspirational way of living. I don’t see how everyone could go moneyless as he does rely on others to some extent (although it is very unlikely everyone willl be giving up money soon). But still it is great to know there are people out there like him.
joshua becker says
Yeah, I didn’t approach the interview thinking “what if everyone went moneyless?” I approached the interview thinking “what can I learn here?”
Elissa Teal says
Exactly, Joshua. I doubt that I will go moneyless for a variety of reasons but I learned so much from reading the book. I am already changed by it for the better.
Mary Weatherbee says
It’s a shame that he didn’t donate his life savings to a charity or a church instead of just leaving it in a phone booth.
joshua becker says
Though I didn’t ask the question and nor should I speak for him, I’d make the argument that his decision to place the money in a phone booth found a foundation in his desire to give and receive freely. Just as the raspberry bush doesn’t decide which bear eats its fruit, so Daniel made no decision who received the money.
That being said, it’s an even bigger shame that so few us give any percentage of our savings to a church or charity… much less all of it.
Suelo says
Joshua answers this beautifully.
I can add to it that the scriptures of those churches we might donate to tell us to love our enemies and give to the “undeserving” as well as the “deserving”, because this is the way of Nature (or God, if you please), where the sun shines and the rain rains on both the just and the unjust. The sun didn’t make Hitler and Gandhi sit down and fill out an application to determine their worthiness to receive its totally gifted energy. Both equally basqued in its rays. Random free giving is magic, for it evolved us and continues to evolve us.
E Dan Barker says
I do not belong to a church, and would rather give to a begger than a pastor who drives a better car than me.
Gene Jennings says
Dan,
I’m a pastor and I drive an 18 year old car because of people like you!
:)
Seriously, I understand your sentiments about pastors and cars. I’m not comfortable buying an expensive car considering that my salary is provided through the generosity of church members. I feel an obligation to be a good steward of my salary for many reasons. One is to be an example of frugality and simple living. I need reliable transportation but I don’t need any more than that.
Thanks for your honesty!
Greg Whitaker says
Hello Mary,
You inspired me to ask myself, did he waste his life savings by randomly giving it to someone (phone booth)? One way charity is defined:
1. generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless. Something given to a person or persons in need. A charitable act or work.
I’d say what he did was charity. And 90% of his money won’t be consumed by administrative costs (salary and profit) before it actually reaches it’s intended recipient in “need.”