“Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists.” – Daniel Suelo
When I first heard the story of Daniel Suelo, I was immediately intrigued. After all, Daniel lives entirely without money and has done so for the past 12 years. In 2000, he put his entire life savings in a phone booth, walked away, and has lived moneyless ever since. Most frequently, he lives in the caves and wilderness of Utah where he eats wild vegetation, scavenges roadkill, pulls food from dumpsters, and is sometimes fed by friends and strangers. Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts.
I found myself very interested in hearing what he has learned from the experience and how it might inspire me in my own journey to live with fewer possessions. So I contacted Daniel to see if I could ask him a few questions about his life and what views on money and possessions have shaped his existence. He graciously agreed. This is how our conversation went:
1) Earlier this year, your story was documented in a book titled The Man Who Quit Money. I opened this interview with a brief introduction. Am I missing anything here Daniel? Anything I should be adding to help us get a better understanding of who you are and the life you have chosen to live?
I don’t care for the statement, “Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts,” because it can be construed that I put myself above those who must take food stamps or government handouts. I don’t judge those who do. I merely mention that I don’t take government assistance for the sake of those who might think I’m living on their tax dollars. I do boast about having few possessions and no money, because it’s ironic fun to boast about nothing special (wild creatures, after all, have few possessions or money and it really feels like no big deal), and to boast about what the rest of our commercial society debases.
I will add that I do make a small exception to taking government handouts: I use the public library to maintain my blog, website, do emails, and read books. This does cause ire in people searching for loopholes in my lifestyle. In my blog comments, a woman once responded to their anger by declaring that she pays taxes and doesn’t use the library, and that she donates all her library time to me. Then they were quiet.
2) Thanks so much for taking the time for this interview. I find it interesting that so many of the articles highlighting your story include something similar to this line: Suelo “came from a good family and has been to college. He was not mentally ill, nor an addict. His decision appears to have been an act of free will by a competent adult.” So, for starters, you are clearly not a crazy man. Correct?
A crazy man does not think himself crazy, so my opinion on the matter is meaningless :-) People will have to judge my sanity for themselves.
But it would be nice if we lived in a world that considered it crazy to cause harm to ourselves, others, and our environment or to praise those who do cause such harm. Then we’d have to say we live in a truly crazy civilization. A sane society would consider it crazy to kill living things and destroy food and water supplies in order to amass something that nobody can eat or drink, like gold, silver, and money. It’s crazy to sacrifice reality to the idol of illusion.
3) The thinking that led to your journey into willful moneylessness evolved by degrees during your travels. Could you share with us some of the foundational beliefs that have evolved in your life that led you to make this decision to give up money entirely?
My first thought of living moneyless came when I was a child. In my Evangelical Christian upbringing, I wondered why, if we were followers of Jesus, we didn’t practice his teachings–namely giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward (money and barter), but giving freely and receiving freely.
When I left home for college, I studied other religions and found that all the world’s major religions teach giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward. If all the separated witnesses are saying the same thing, it must be true. Ironically, few practice the one thing they all agree upon in word. What would happen if we actually practiced this stuff, I thought.
My dad also took us camping a lot, and I was a nature freak. I couldn’t help but see how perfectly balanced nature was, and it ran on no money. Why, then, couldn’t we?
As an adult, I thought it through more thoroughly. Nature’s economy is a pay-it-forward economy. This means one sows, another reaps, ad infitum. For example, a bear takes a raspberry, and the raspeberry bush demands nothing in return. The Bear takes with zero sense of obligation, zero guilt. The bear then poops somewhere else, not only providing food for soil organisms, but also propagating raspberry seeds. You never see 2 wild creatures consciously bartering. There are no accountants worrying what the bush will get in return. This is exactly why it works, because nobody knows how it works! There is no consciousness of credit and debt in nature. Consciousness of credit and debt is knowledge of good and evil, valuing one thing and devaluing another. Consciousness of credit and debt is our fall from Grace. Grace means gratis, free gift.
My next impetus for living moneyless came from observing the world economy and politics. Do our economy and politics function well? It’s self-evident, isn’t it?
My next impetus for living moneyless was to find authenticity for myself. To do out of one’s heart is to be real. To do for somebody, expecting something from them, is ulterior motivation, which is to not be real, which is to prostitute oneself.
My last impetus for living moneyless was to heal myself. Okay, I guess I’ll talk about my craziness. To heal myself was to first see myself as crazy, and only them could I become free of craziness. I was suffering clinical depression. Mental illness is rooted in having unnecessary, thoughts and to let go of unnecessary thoughts is to free oneself from mental illness. This is basic Buddhist philosophy. It is the philosophy of all the ancient religions. To cling to thoughts is to possess thoughts and this outwardly manifests itself in having unnecessary physical possessions. We accumulate what we don’t need out of fear and anxiety. This is true craziness. Unnecessary thoughts and unnecessary physical possessions (including possessing people) are inextricably linked. To accumulate unnecessary possessions is not to live in abundance, as we’re led to believe, but is to live in scarcity. Why would we have too much stuff if we believed the universe was abundant? Why would we worry if we weren’t crazy? Worry is simply lack of faith, faith that everything we need is in the here and now.
4) Your spirituality is clearly an important part of your journey. In what ways, have your spiritual beliefs strengthened you for this journey and lifestyle?
I mentioned above that this is about faith. Faith is eliminating unnecessary thought, trusting that everything we need comes as we need it, whether it is the right thoughts or the right possessions. Faith is being grounded in the Eternal Present. This is the common truth of the world’s religions.
5) What are some of the most important lessons about money/people/society you have personally learned over the past 12 years? And did any of these lessons surprise you?
Most important is that I’ve learned our true nature lives moneyless, giving freely and receiving freely. Even the most staid CEO is human underneath, and gives and receives freely with friends and family. By cultivating this nature in myself, I can see it in others, and it can be cultivated in others. When our real selves are cultivated, the gift economy is cultivated, our unreal selves (based on ulterior motivation) and all the nonsense drops away.
I have been surprised at the intensely angry reaction thousands of people have had at my living moneyless. It used to bother me, but now I realize that anger doesn’t come from people’s true nature, but from the facade they build up. The facade is threatened by reality. Who wants to hear that the basis of our commercial civilization is an illusion? Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists. Money is not a physical substance, but merely a belief in the head. Money is credit, and credit literally means belief (e.g. credibility). Money is literally a creed, the most agreed-upon creed, or religion, in the world. And what fundamentalists won’t get angry if you question their creed?
6) The reality of today’s society is that most people will never make the full leap into moneylessness like you have. Do you believe that your lifestyle still offers important inspiration for individuals and families? And if so, in what ways?
As I said, we all live moneyless at our core, in our everyday actions with friends, family, and even strangers. People tell me almost every day that they find living this way inspiring and even comforting. Even if people don’t intend on giving up money, they can still find that it isn’t the end of the world if they lose their money. If you are not religious, it is comforting to be reminded that life has flourished in balance for millions of years without money, and why should it fall apart without money now? Nature evolved you from an amoeboid to a human over millions of years, with zero money, so why should nature give up on you now? How is it that, when natural disasters (tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis) hit towns and cities, people suddenly forget about money and start helping each other? It’s comforting that we have a true nature beneath the falseness and ulterior motivation of commercial civilization.
And if you are religious, it’s comforting to know there is profound truth at the core of your religion (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Sikh) that actually works if you practice it, that it isn’t all a lie. If we don’t practice the core truth of giving up possessions and ulterior motivation that every religion teaches, then of course our religion becomes a destructive lie, as we see all around us.
7) What are the practical steps individuals can take to free themselves from their pursuit (and bondage) to money – even if they will never live entirely moneyless?
People get overwhelmed unless they realize that all the tools they have are here and now, and steps can be taken right here and now.
Everybody, no matter how entrenched they are in the money system, can freely give and freely receive. Freely giving and freely receiving is our true nature, is true human-ness. And everybody is human. As I said earlier, it’s about being real, cultivating our true nature, and everything else falls into place, and all the falsehood drops away, no matter what station in life people are in. Even if somebody is totally skeptical about what I am doing, I challenge them to make it their goal to be totally real, with themselves and with every human interaction, and I propose they will then know whether or not I’m living a pipe dream.
Somebody once commented that our cities and towns could not function without money. But I say they and the world can’t function right now in the present system.
Take classic American suburbia, for example. People don’t know their neighbors, and everybody has their own cars, computers, TVs, lawn mowers, washing machines, etc, etc, as well as stockpiles of food and land they could grow food on. All we need is right here, but the only thing that’s holding us back is not physical reality, but belief, dogma. What if we actually spoke to our neighbors and agreed to share, like we learned in kindergarten and in church? What if we realized we could share cars, computers, washing machines, have dinners together, etc, which would not only save us expense, but would save expense on the environment, and, as a bonus, put smiles on our lonely faces? Then cities and technology would start serving us, rather than us serving them. But what’s holding us back? Not reality, not scarcity, but only our thinking!
As far as going all the way and living without money, people often ask me to teach them survival skills. Often I feel like I don’t know many skills, that it’s really about determination and getting up the confidence more than actual skill. Sometimes I tell folks to imagine something really silly: what if somebody offered you a million dollars to live without money for a year? I guarantee most people would figure out how to do it, skilled or no. This is about finding a determination, a motivation greater than a million dollars!
8) I’m curious how concerned you are about spreading this message of living free from money. I know you had the book written about you, you maintain your website, and you have agreed to this interview and various others. Is there a message you believe you have inside that is important to get out? And do you look forward to your story continuing to spread?
Yes, I now have a strong urge to spread the message. At first I just wanted to live my own life, whether or not anybody else took notice or not. Then I realized a message was errupting in me that I could no more suppress than an erupting volcano. Our society is not sustainable and we are not only heading rapidly into, but most the world has already reached disaster, due directly to our being trapped by our own beliefs. I want to shout this out to the world. But talk isn’t enough. It must be talk with action, right now. We could debate whether or not Paul Revere was trying to gain attention for himself, or we could simply take notice that the British are invading and we have to get off our butts!
Thanks so much for your time Daniel, I really do appreciate it. Your experience is unique – at least, in our society. As a result, it provides each of us an opportunity to reevaluate your own opinions and views on how we choose to live. And for that, I am very thankful.
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To discover more about Daniel’s specific journey or find the answers to the questions swirling in your head, I’ll refer you to the FAQ on his website.
But before you leave, what parts of Daniel’s story resonated most with you? Did you discover any new insight or inspiration during the interview? Let us know in the comment section below. I’m interested to hear how his story is challenging others.
Azra shamsie says
Well, I need to know where that phone booth is so I can take all the money and feed all the children who’re starving, dying without basic medical facilities and living their youths in war torn countries
Sandra Bonney says
He understands a deep essence.
If we all gave up money no one could control us.
Nothing short of a natural cataclysm that blasts us back to the stone age will change this current system.
I love what he said about how in natural disasters people forget about money and pitch in to help each other – that’s so true.
I also relate to what he says about animals in the wild.
We are so out of balance
Dannie says
My ex husband and I spent one summer living off the land. It was a remarkable summer. It was also one of the hardest of my life. Though I value that experience I can not imagine doing that much work for the rest of my life every single day. I honor his choices but I need a shower and indoor plumbing and not to, in my sixties to have to haul water and chop fire wood. Maybe that makes me a lazy intitled American as I know this is the real world for many people, but its an honest answer. I do want to not just seek money and use my money to help others but I could not live without money completely.
Douglas Groothuis says
The Bible forbids greed, not money. There is no one common core to all religions. They teach different things about the sacred, the cosmos, and humankind.
I do salute him for not living of the civil government, as too many do. Of course, this interesting man is an eccentric. I’m hard pressed to find anything particularly commendable in his lifestyle. For one thing, if you have no money, you can give no money to the needy. And on it goes.
Ennis Pepper says
One question. Where’s the phone booth :)?
More seriously, the Bible doesn’t decry money or a monetary system. It does say a lot about obsessing over money and it warns us not to love it (which can be expressed in many different ways). The love of money, not money, is the ROOT of all evil but giving up money seems counterproductive.
Jesus addressed our hearts first. Change the heart and you have a good shot at changing the way people see, earn, and manage money.
Can we agree that at the root of theft is a money problem? Not the only problem but a significant contributor. The next question is does the Bible address this issue? The answer is, yes, it does.
Paul said let him that stole, steal no more but work with his hands the thing that is good that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Sounds like working to earn money and then managing it in a way to use it for good.
Money is not the problem. Removing all money will not automatically convert liars, thieves, murderers, rapists, or abusers of any ilk into decent, gracious, loving, kind, fair-minded individuals. They’ll just find other ways to abuse.
Bravo to Daniel. He’s made people think and that is always a good thing but, unfortunately, I won’t be following in his footsteps. I don’t like bugs or dirt. I don’t personally believe in evolution but if I did, I would say that I have evolved away from my animalistic roots. My camping never gets rougher than a Holiday Inn.
I’ve tried to be respectful but just in case the moderator judges it inappropriate, I copied my reply. It will find it’s way into a post at some time.
Corey says
Not to be demeaning, but your tone sounds awfully defensive, as if his words about religion have triggered your defense mechanisms in some way. As you say, he makes us think, which I agree is a good thing. He is walking a different path than most of us, and it has lead to insights that those not walking that path might never have. Jesus also said “It is easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God”. Maybe Jesus wasn’t talking about money when he said “rich”, though ;) Our modern capitalistic society leads to gross disparities and abuses, and this is something which is causing great harm to our planet and millions of humans. Daniel may be living an extreme lifestyle, but I think we can ALL learn that there are many positives and things to learn from it
Wanda says
I’d love to do something similar, but surviving the Canadian winter without money is hard.
Paula says
YES! I’d surely die in -40 degrees weather. IF, however, I were still living in Florida…THAT could be do-able!?
Rob says
Reading this again, years later after the first time, it speaks even closer to home. I recently sold my business, moved, and at 65, retired from struggling for a living. I have my savings, but try as I might, I am having no success gleaning an income from trading stock options. I always wondered, in view of this economy of Daniel’s, if God was behind my trading or not. I am daily growing into surrendering that God might not be, and I may end up living out my last days in poverty, and I feel that with a strange increasing joy and lessening dread, as if I am being wooed into falling into the Everlasting Arms, as Daniel has done. From reading Daniel’s experiences, I sense he is among the richest of us.
Merc says
Wow how poetically stated. I pray your surrender increases in beauty.
Gen Agustsson says
i knew it’s challenging at first but i agree that money is NOT a physical substance and yes, money is only in our minds! Decriminalize moneyless lifestyle!
Longing for a Better Way says
The pay it forward economy naturally in nature.
I remember being both intrigued and angry all in the same instance as I watched the squirrels outside my window, and I said, “Those squirrels aren’t paying any taxes. They aren’t paying bills. Why are we the only creatures on this planet deciding to live this way? ”
My family thinks I’m nuts for wanting to move toward a lifestyle where are life is just lived without all these weird extras we put ourselves through.
I loved this interview, and I definitely want to thumb through the website soon.
Serena says
What resonates with me is getting to know our neighbors and having dinners and sharing. Also he is right about disasters happening, how everyone helps each other without even thinking twice about money. I am slowly trying to get to a place where I can be at peace with myself and my family.
CK says
It kinda reminds me of “Neo” in the movie – The Matrix.
It takes great courage to renounce and unplug from the system we are living in.