“Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists.” – Daniel Suelo
When I first heard the story of Daniel Suelo, I was immediately intrigued. After all, Daniel lives entirely without money and has done so for the past 12 years. In 2000, he put his entire life savings in a phone booth, walked away, and has lived moneyless ever since. Most frequently, he lives in the caves and wilderness of Utah where he eats wild vegetation, scavenges roadkill, pulls food from dumpsters, and is sometimes fed by friends and strangers. Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts.
I found myself very interested in hearing what he has learned from the experience and how it might inspire me in my own journey to live with fewer possessions. So I contacted Daniel to see if I could ask him a few questions about his life and what views on money and possessions have shaped his existence. He graciously agreed. This is how our conversation went:
1) Earlier this year, your story was documented in a book titled The Man Who Quit Money. I opened this interview with a brief introduction. Am I missing anything here Daniel? Anything I should be adding to help us get a better understanding of who you are and the life you have chosen to live?
I don’t care for the statement, “Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts,” because it can be construed that I put myself above those who must take food stamps or government handouts. I don’t judge those who do. I merely mention that I don’t take government assistance for the sake of those who might think I’m living on their tax dollars. I do boast about having few possessions and no money, because it’s ironic fun to boast about nothing special (wild creatures, after all, have few possessions or money and it really feels like no big deal), and to boast about what the rest of our commercial society debases.
I will add that I do make a small exception to taking government handouts: I use the public library to maintain my blog, website, do emails, and read books. This does cause ire in people searching for loopholes in my lifestyle. In my blog comments, a woman once responded to their anger by declaring that she pays taxes and doesn’t use the library, and that she donates all her library time to me. Then they were quiet.
2) Thanks so much for taking the time for this interview. I find it interesting that so many of the articles highlighting your story include something similar to this line: Suelo “came from a good family and has been to college. He was not mentally ill, nor an addict. His decision appears to have been an act of free will by a competent adult.” So, for starters, you are clearly not a crazy man. Correct?
A crazy man does not think himself crazy, so my opinion on the matter is meaningless :-) People will have to judge my sanity for themselves.
But it would be nice if we lived in a world that considered it crazy to cause harm to ourselves, others, and our environment or to praise those who do cause such harm. Then we’d have to say we live in a truly crazy civilization. A sane society would consider it crazy to kill living things and destroy food and water supplies in order to amass something that nobody can eat or drink, like gold, silver, and money. It’s crazy to sacrifice reality to the idol of illusion.
3) The thinking that led to your journey into willful moneylessness evolved by degrees during your travels. Could you share with us some of the foundational beliefs that have evolved in your life that led you to make this decision to give up money entirely?
My first thought of living moneyless came when I was a child. In my Evangelical Christian upbringing, I wondered why, if we were followers of Jesus, we didn’t practice his teachings–namely giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward (money and barter), but giving freely and receiving freely.
When I left home for college, I studied other religions and found that all the world’s major religions teach giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward. If all the separated witnesses are saying the same thing, it must be true. Ironically, few practice the one thing they all agree upon in word. What would happen if we actually practiced this stuff, I thought.
My dad also took us camping a lot, and I was a nature freak. I couldn’t help but see how perfectly balanced nature was, and it ran on no money. Why, then, couldn’t we?
As an adult, I thought it through more thoroughly. Nature’s economy is a pay-it-forward economy. This means one sows, another reaps, ad infitum. For example, a bear takes a raspberry, and the raspeberry bush demands nothing in return. The Bear takes with zero sense of obligation, zero guilt. The bear then poops somewhere else, not only providing food for soil organisms, but also propagating raspberry seeds. You never see 2 wild creatures consciously bartering. There are no accountants worrying what the bush will get in return. This is exactly why it works, because nobody knows how it works! There is no consciousness of credit and debt in nature. Consciousness of credit and debt is knowledge of good and evil, valuing one thing and devaluing another. Consciousness of credit and debt is our fall from Grace. Grace means gratis, free gift.
My next impetus for living moneyless came from observing the world economy and politics. Do our economy and politics function well? It’s self-evident, isn’t it?
My next impetus for living moneyless was to find authenticity for myself. To do out of one’s heart is to be real. To do for somebody, expecting something from them, is ulterior motivation, which is to not be real, which is to prostitute oneself.
My last impetus for living moneyless was to heal myself. Okay, I guess I’ll talk about my craziness. To heal myself was to first see myself as crazy, and only them could I become free of craziness. I was suffering clinical depression. Mental illness is rooted in having unnecessary, thoughts and to let go of unnecessary thoughts is to free oneself from mental illness. This is basic Buddhist philosophy. It is the philosophy of all the ancient religions. To cling to thoughts is to possess thoughts and this outwardly manifests itself in having unnecessary physical possessions. We accumulate what we don’t need out of fear and anxiety. This is true craziness. Unnecessary thoughts and unnecessary physical possessions (including possessing people) are inextricably linked. To accumulate unnecessary possessions is not to live in abundance, as we’re led to believe, but is to live in scarcity. Why would we have too much stuff if we believed the universe was abundant? Why would we worry if we weren’t crazy? Worry is simply lack of faith, faith that everything we need is in the here and now.
4) Your spirituality is clearly an important part of your journey. In what ways, have your spiritual beliefs strengthened you for this journey and lifestyle?
I mentioned above that this is about faith. Faith is eliminating unnecessary thought, trusting that everything we need comes as we need it, whether it is the right thoughts or the right possessions. Faith is being grounded in the Eternal Present. This is the common truth of the world’s religions.
5) What are some of the most important lessons about money/people/society you have personally learned over the past 12 years? And did any of these lessons surprise you?
Most important is that I’ve learned our true nature lives moneyless, giving freely and receiving freely. Even the most staid CEO is human underneath, and gives and receives freely with friends and family. By cultivating this nature in myself, I can see it in others, and it can be cultivated in others. When our real selves are cultivated, the gift economy is cultivated, our unreal selves (based on ulterior motivation) and all the nonsense drops away.
I have been surprised at the intensely angry reaction thousands of people have had at my living moneyless. It used to bother me, but now I realize that anger doesn’t come from people’s true nature, but from the facade they build up. The facade is threatened by reality. Who wants to hear that the basis of our commercial civilization is an illusion? Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists. Money is not a physical substance, but merely a belief in the head. Money is credit, and credit literally means belief (e.g. credibility). Money is literally a creed, the most agreed-upon creed, or religion, in the world. And what fundamentalists won’t get angry if you question their creed?
6) The reality of today’s society is that most people will never make the full leap into moneylessness like you have. Do you believe that your lifestyle still offers important inspiration for individuals and families? And if so, in what ways?
As I said, we all live moneyless at our core, in our everyday actions with friends, family, and even strangers. People tell me almost every day that they find living this way inspiring and even comforting. Even if people don’t intend on giving up money, they can still find that it isn’t the end of the world if they lose their money. If you are not religious, it is comforting to be reminded that life has flourished in balance for millions of years without money, and why should it fall apart without money now? Nature evolved you from an amoeboid to a human over millions of years, with zero money, so why should nature give up on you now? How is it that, when natural disasters (tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis) hit towns and cities, people suddenly forget about money and start helping each other? It’s comforting that we have a true nature beneath the falseness and ulterior motivation of commercial civilization.
And if you are religious, it’s comforting to know there is profound truth at the core of your religion (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Sikh) that actually works if you practice it, that it isn’t all a lie. If we don’t practice the core truth of giving up possessions and ulterior motivation that every religion teaches, then of course our religion becomes a destructive lie, as we see all around us.
7) What are the practical steps individuals can take to free themselves from their pursuit (and bondage) to money – even if they will never live entirely moneyless?
People get overwhelmed unless they realize that all the tools they have are here and now, and steps can be taken right here and now.
Everybody, no matter how entrenched they are in the money system, can freely give and freely receive. Freely giving and freely receiving is our true nature, is true human-ness. And everybody is human. As I said earlier, it’s about being real, cultivating our true nature, and everything else falls into place, and all the falsehood drops away, no matter what station in life people are in. Even if somebody is totally skeptical about what I am doing, I challenge them to make it their goal to be totally real, with themselves and with every human interaction, and I propose they will then know whether or not I’m living a pipe dream.
Somebody once commented that our cities and towns could not function without money. But I say they and the world can’t function right now in the present system.
Take classic American suburbia, for example. People don’t know their neighbors, and everybody has their own cars, computers, TVs, lawn mowers, washing machines, etc, etc, as well as stockpiles of food and land they could grow food on. All we need is right here, but the only thing that’s holding us back is not physical reality, but belief, dogma. What if we actually spoke to our neighbors and agreed to share, like we learned in kindergarten and in church? What if we realized we could share cars, computers, washing machines, have dinners together, etc, which would not only save us expense, but would save expense on the environment, and, as a bonus, put smiles on our lonely faces? Then cities and technology would start serving us, rather than us serving them. But what’s holding us back? Not reality, not scarcity, but only our thinking!
As far as going all the way and living without money, people often ask me to teach them survival skills. Often I feel like I don’t know many skills, that it’s really about determination and getting up the confidence more than actual skill. Sometimes I tell folks to imagine something really silly: what if somebody offered you a million dollars to live without money for a year? I guarantee most people would figure out how to do it, skilled or no. This is about finding a determination, a motivation greater than a million dollars!
8) I’m curious how concerned you are about spreading this message of living free from money. I know you had the book written about you, you maintain your website, and you have agreed to this interview and various others. Is there a message you believe you have inside that is important to get out? And do you look forward to your story continuing to spread?
Yes, I now have a strong urge to spread the message. At first I just wanted to live my own life, whether or not anybody else took notice or not. Then I realized a message was errupting in me that I could no more suppress than an erupting volcano. Our society is not sustainable and we are not only heading rapidly into, but most the world has already reached disaster, due directly to our being trapped by our own beliefs. I want to shout this out to the world. But talk isn’t enough. It must be talk with action, right now. We could debate whether or not Paul Revere was trying to gain attention for himself, or we could simply take notice that the British are invading and we have to get off our butts!
Thanks so much for your time Daniel, I really do appreciate it. Your experience is unique – at least, in our society. As a result, it provides each of us an opportunity to reevaluate your own opinions and views on how we choose to live. And for that, I am very thankful.
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To discover more about Daniel’s specific journey or find the answers to the questions swirling in your head, I’ll refer you to the FAQ on his website.
But before you leave, what parts of Daniel’s story resonated most with you? Did you discover any new insight or inspiration during the interview? Let us know in the comment section below. I’m interested to hear how his story is challenging others.
Brenda Anderson says
Truly inspirational!
Jonathan says
Erin,
I don’t think your comment is fair. While there is some discussion of the physical, there is a lot of focus on values. You ignore all of the other statements made about these women to focus on the ones that can be interpreted negatively. But you create a straw man out of what is said. Sure, the words ‘desirable’ and ‘attractive’ and ‘babe’ are used. But in the context of all the words they actually said the ones we would normally interpret to be about appearance change to be about the personalities. Think of someone you have found to be attractive at first, but then realize is a jerk, or vice versa. A ‘babe’ can easily mean someone who is kind, and funny, and … fill in the awesome personality blanks. The same interpretation can be use for ‘desirable’ and ‘attractive’. Desirable simply means that you want the other person around, and attractive means you feel a pull to be in their presence. Boiling either one of them down to the merely physical is a mistake. I took these statements to be about how cool these women are, and finding someone who is cool to be beautiful is natural. It would be odd if we weren’t attracted to people we respect, right? We should want (desire?) to be in their presence.
Also, your last sentence- thinking my knee-jerk reaction would be to comment on your appearance- I get why you think that. The internet is not a kindly place, and typically comments (especially) are dark alleys of despair and poor grammar. But you do get the irony, right? You don’t want us to judge people by their outer appearance, but then you say that you are pretty. If the external doesn’t matter, why mention it?
Erin says
My god you people are shallow! I can’t believe I have to say this, but there’s far more to a woman than her outer appearance! No doubt your knee-jerk reaction to my statement will be that I must be a homely woman. Not so, guys! Show a little progress, for heavens sake!
Bird says
I agree with you completely. By judging a women’s outer exterior as being beautiful or “babes” in light of who seems to be most interested in this type of lifestyle it shows a deep disregard for the whole person. And to use the terminology of scoring really does debase this to a sexual ideal. Anthropologically human beings choose mates best suited to helping care for offspring. Digging through garbage cans for sustinance does not attract a lifelong mate. Maybe a curiosity seeker not someone to share your life. While Mr. Suelo has very relevant opinions in terms of this day and age of excess he damaged his reputation for me with his mysoginistc comments and replies to such comments.
Mick says
I agree with the ladies, and I’m a man!
Who cares about outward appearances, if you went blind tomorrow, and your wife had to look after you, would you prefer a kind wife that you’d chosen because of her confidence, abilities and how interesting she was or a shallow, good looking woman who took flight the minute she discovered she’d become your carer?
Most women are good looking anyway. You can grow in fondness just by being near to one another.
Appearances really are a first world problem, one that needs to go away.
naomi says
I want to comment on this, even though I’m not sure,what to say. I guess just…I hear you. It’s beautiful and right. I’ll never get that far down the path if minimalism, but your story frees and inspires me to go a little further.
Wilfrod says
This sounds great but there’s a problem: reproduction and finding a mate. The most desirable women are often drawn to men who accomplish worldly things and accumulate material goods. It’s not an accident that homeless men and men like the gentleman in this story don’t have wives or girlfriends. How does one find a desirable mate when choosing to give everything up? How would mating and dating work in a society without possessions? By choosing to live a life like this, you have to be okay with sacrificing your sexuality, almost like becoming a priest.
daretoeatapeach says
Women don’t desire a mate with material possessions. They desire a mate that is doing something with his life. In a capitalist culture, that is often measured through material trappings (house, car, etc) or the means to acquire them (job, wealth). However there are plenty of women who have chosen a different path, and would be just as moved by the man’s quest. There is no reason women are incapable of having the same conversions experience that David did, and would seek that as a sign that they share common goals and values.
Suelo says
I agree about women.
I am gay, but I sometimes wish I weren’t, because, honestly, the best and smartest and most attractive female babes in the world have stepped up for me since I gave up money. It seems to scare away gay men, however. Life’s funny. But maybe the choicest guy will make it through. Or maybe not. I’m happy either way. I just have no desire to sacrifice my principles for a relationship.
Suelo says
on the topic: look up Peace Pilgrim, for those who think this is a man’s path. I’m a total wimp compared to her.
Brad Buechner says
I can imagine you would attract some pretty convicted females! And by some strange workings of the Universe, it seems like a lot of the most convicted females out there are also beautiful on the outside, so that’d be a big score.
Your story as well as Peace Pilgrim’s are very inspiring. It’s amazing what happens when you trust in faith / align with pure principles. I’ve been on a similar journey the past several months, not using any money and really just focusing on ideals like Love, Peace, Joy, Goodness, Reverence, etc. so forth and so on :-)…and it has worked out pretty well!
By chance, have you read the book Power vs. Force? Just finished it the other day and it seems to testify to the power we all have when we align with Pure Principles rather than selfish pursuits.
Either way – Cheers! And Peace , Love, Prosperity, all things good!
Ben says
She was an inspiration for sure …. just as you are Suelo.
Marilyn Zimmerwoman says
I am a tenured professor with a salaried lifetime position. I am also a devoted revolutionary committed to finding new paradigms, and encourage you that there are women such as myself who have loved men with little resources and men with great resources equally. The feminist movement which allows women to create their lifestyle according to their own standards has also given them the freedom to love whomever they wish. Men therefore are also freed from being the caretaker and provider. Live your life according to your own imagination and intuition, rising to the revolutionary call of these times, and trust that connectedness, new values and love in abundance will follow.
Amy says
I’ve been thinking about going to live out of a cave/in the wilderness for a long ass time. This is motivating me.
Chris says
Let’s go together!
janine says
let’s go!
Lah says
Hey people, I have the same idea, I live in Malaysia, the forest there can provide a living so much for what the basic thing we need unless we are greed and think gadget as our basic need too. reach me by email > lohc4@yahoo.com < if anyone interested..
rwb says
Congradualations! you know all the wealth you have in this Universe is not in money ,but in all that conspired to put you amongst all the elements of Creation in you and around you to share in togethter…that is the true inner and outer light connecting together….What about the Money? …well, whether it stared out with swapping one resource for another in early times that grew into coin, paper credit, etc..for increasing trading swaps of all types of resources, what it has come to today is horrendous!!! THE ENTIRE MODERN AGE WORLD TODAY IS IN THE CONTROL OF A GROUP OF THE PLANET EARTH’S WEALTHIEST MEN WHOSE POWER IS HIGHER THAN GOVERNMENTS AND THIS GROUP USES QUADTRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN CORPORATIONS AND INDUSTRIAL GLOBAL ENTERPRISES THAT RUIN PLANET EARTH’S LIFE SUSTAINING ENVIRONMENT WHILE CONTINUING TO INCREASE THE EXSTINCTION OF MORE ENDANGERED NATURAL CREATIONS EVERYDAY…AND UNLESS THIS CHANGES QUICKLY….!!!….. THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR THE RECENTLY BIRTHED HUMAN CHILDREN …!!!…AND THE REST OF US…!!!… EARTH’S WEALTHIEST MEN WHO ONLY CARE ABOUT THE MONEY ARE THE ONLY ONE’S WHO COLLECTIVELY CAN CHANGE THE WORLD TO BE BETTER , BUT IT WILL BE AT A GREAT COST TO THEM BECAUSE THEY WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT TO SURVIVE THEY HAVE TO CHANGE WHAT THEY INDUSTRIALLY DO THAT IS HARMFULL TO ENVIRONMENTS AND SOCIETY AND THEY MAY NOT CARE OR BE SMART ENOUGH TO DO IT…AND THAT COULD LEAD TO OTHERS STARTING A REVOLUTION…TO FORCE THEM TO CHANGE….OR JUST KNOWING WITH THE DAMAGED ENVIRNOMENT SO BADLY ABUSED EVERYDAY …THERE IS A LIMIT ON THE TIME TO CORRECT THIS…!!!……THE HUMAN BEINGS HORRIBLE ABUSE OF THE RESOURCES COMBINED WITH OVERPOPULLATION WITHOUT FAIRLY AND EFFICIENTLY SHARING REALLY DOESN’T MATTER .
IF THIS IS THE BEST IMAGE OF THEIR HUMAN CREATOR THEY CAN REFLECT , THEN REMEMBER THIS…….if this is all you are as a Creation,what little Goodness money taught you…
THE COSMOS IS ALWAYS WATCHING OVER CREATION AND ALL I CAN SAY TO THIS SELFISH HUMAN SPECIE,… FIX IT NOW!!!!!…OR ….ENJOY THE SHORT TIME THAT IS LEFT WITH YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS!!!!!!
janine says
there is a small group of families who pretty much own everything. yes. and they are destroying the environment which produces what’s needed for them to continue in their quest for power and money. they are not only killing plants and animals, but also killing off humans by the millions. i’m sure they have some world ownership, dominion plan that was laid out long, long ago. great for them. bad for everyone, everything else.
what always got me about this conspiracy, which i totally believe, is it has to end in total destruction of the human race and the earth itself. so what do they gain in the end? i’ve taken the conspiracy a step further. i believe there is and always has been a spiritual battle going on; the good against evil, satan against god, whatever you want to call it. and evil’s end goal is to wipe humanity off the face of the earth – because in humanity there is a grain of good. so for evil to win, humanity must be lost.
what’s sad is that good can win just as well as evil. what’s sad is that we give in every day to the evil by allowing it to exist, by not actively fighting against it. my time on earth and the fight i’ve waged against evil is almost over. i hope i’ve left something of the fight in at least one other human being. fight on!
Ben says
that’s an interesting perspective and i agree with much of it. all the world’s religions preach that the world will wax worse and that there will be an ultimate battle between good and evil.
lynin says
Who took the picture? Someone had a camera. What if you get an easily curable disease; you don’t want to avail yourself of modern medicine? (not that it’s all good)
Or if you cohabit, have a child and feed it grubs? There’s really no going back to caveman even though a few people here and there can do it. I’ve been ridding myself of ‘stuff’ for years and admire people who can resist all the advertising of ‘must haves’, as I do. However, human interaction is essential to survival and therefore we must learn to live in the world but not be ‘of the world’. That’s the Jesus way.
Carole says
In 1933, (yep, during the Great Depression) Ralph Borsodi laid out the economic concepts that Suelo is rediscovering. Suelo has chosen isolation as part of his path. Borsodi demonstrated that the same independence from money could be achieved by leaving the city and living in a rural community.
He laid down his economic theory in “Flight from the City.” His theory was such a threat to our Capitalist society that his books were bought up and otherwise taken out of circulation. It’s still very hard to find a copy. However some still exist in Canada.
Under the influence of Borsodi’s claims, I quit a good job and went back to school to get a long desired Master’s degree. In 1995, after following Borsodi’s concepts, I graduated without any debt.
Borsodi does not shun money. He simply advocates that you never sell your labor.
He says Capitalism only thrives when workers not only create but subsidize the company’s profits. Capitalist workers are only one step higher, but economically the same, as slave labor. “I owe my soul to the company store” is the truth of Capitalist workers. If you refuse to work to a time clock, your time and resources establish your own prosperity. The choice is your well being vs Capitalist well being. See why Borsodi’s books disappeared.
Brian says
I don’t think a book can be silenced by buying up all copies and removing it from circulation. Wouldn’t they just print more copies if it sold out?
Sue says
I found “Flight from the City” by Ralph Bordosi on Amazon as well as other bookstores that are on-line.
pamalamap says
Ralph Borsodi, full text of Flight From the City: http://archive.org/stream/flightfromcityan00borsrich/flightfromcityan00borsrich_djvu.txt
dhawal says
Awesome. Very inspiring
Kara says
I am not a religious person, or a political person for that matter, but someting did go click as I was reading your interview. Talking about how we don’t know our neighbours and we have land but its not hardly used to grow food, and how we as a society are money hungry, destroying natures lands not for food production but for industrial purposes… I am living and working in that society, but i try my best to grow what i can in my own fruits and vegetables and pick berries in the forest rather than pay corporate grocery stores to bring produce in from other countries instead of what is already growing in my own “backyard”and i would love to see more people become more self sufficient and less dependant on just run down to the market and buy it attitude! And to have neighbours who you not only know, but are friends with and who you share common interests in the self sufficient lifestyle, sharing crops and lending a hand for the sake of just lending a hand… I have to say i hope your journey is a very satisifying one, and i hope that many more people are able to reflect on what it is you are doing and are able to take something benifical to them out of what you are doing and apply it to their own lives
Crystal Satko Moore says
“How is it that, when natural disasters (tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis) hit towns and cities, people suddenly forget about money and start helping each other? It’s comforting that we have a true nature beneath the falseness and ulterior motivation of commercial civilization.”
We feel so wonderful when we help others.