“Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists.” – Daniel Suelo
When I first heard the story of Daniel Suelo, I was immediately intrigued. After all, Daniel lives entirely without money and has done so for the past 12 years. In 2000, he put his entire life savings in a phone booth, walked away, and has lived moneyless ever since. Most frequently, he lives in the caves and wilderness of Utah where he eats wild vegetation, scavenges roadkill, pulls food from dumpsters, and is sometimes fed by friends and strangers. Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts.
I found myself very interested in hearing what he has learned from the experience and how it might inspire me in my own journey to live with fewer possessions. So I contacted Daniel to see if I could ask him a few questions about his life and what views on money and possessions have shaped his existence. He graciously agreed. This is how our conversation went:
1) Earlier this year, your story was documented in a book titled The Man Who Quit Money. I opened this interview with a brief introduction. Am I missing anything here Daniel? Anything I should be adding to help us get a better understanding of who you are and the life you have chosen to live?
I don’t care for the statement, “Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts,” because it can be construed that I put myself above those who must take food stamps or government handouts. I don’t judge those who do. I merely mention that I don’t take government assistance for the sake of those who might think I’m living on their tax dollars. I do boast about having few possessions and no money, because it’s ironic fun to boast about nothing special (wild creatures, after all, have few possessions or money and it really feels like no big deal), and to boast about what the rest of our commercial society debases.
I will add that I do make a small exception to taking government handouts: I use the public library to maintain my blog, website, do emails, and read books. This does cause ire in people searching for loopholes in my lifestyle. In my blog comments, a woman once responded to their anger by declaring that she pays taxes and doesn’t use the library, and that she donates all her library time to me. Then they were quiet.
2) Thanks so much for taking the time for this interview. I find it interesting that so many of the articles highlighting your story include something similar to this line: Suelo “came from a good family and has been to college. He was not mentally ill, nor an addict. His decision appears to have been an act of free will by a competent adult.” So, for starters, you are clearly not a crazy man. Correct?
A crazy man does not think himself crazy, so my opinion on the matter is meaningless :-) People will have to judge my sanity for themselves.
But it would be nice if we lived in a world that considered it crazy to cause harm to ourselves, others, and our environment or to praise those who do cause such harm. Then we’d have to say we live in a truly crazy civilization. A sane society would consider it crazy to kill living things and destroy food and water supplies in order to amass something that nobody can eat or drink, like gold, silver, and money. It’s crazy to sacrifice reality to the idol of illusion.
3) The thinking that led to your journey into willful moneylessness evolved by degrees during your travels. Could you share with us some of the foundational beliefs that have evolved in your life that led you to make this decision to give up money entirely?
My first thought of living moneyless came when I was a child. In my Evangelical Christian upbringing, I wondered why, if we were followers of Jesus, we didn’t practice his teachings–namely giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward (money and barter), but giving freely and receiving freely.
When I left home for college, I studied other religions and found that all the world’s major religions teach giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward. If all the separated witnesses are saying the same thing, it must be true. Ironically, few practice the one thing they all agree upon in word. What would happen if we actually practiced this stuff, I thought.
My dad also took us camping a lot, and I was a nature freak. I couldn’t help but see how perfectly balanced nature was, and it ran on no money. Why, then, couldn’t we?
As an adult, I thought it through more thoroughly. Nature’s economy is a pay-it-forward economy. This means one sows, another reaps, ad infitum. For example, a bear takes a raspberry, and the raspeberry bush demands nothing in return. The Bear takes with zero sense of obligation, zero guilt. The bear then poops somewhere else, not only providing food for soil organisms, but also propagating raspberry seeds. You never see 2 wild creatures consciously bartering. There are no accountants worrying what the bush will get in return. This is exactly why it works, because nobody knows how it works! There is no consciousness of credit and debt in nature. Consciousness of credit and debt is knowledge of good and evil, valuing one thing and devaluing another. Consciousness of credit and debt is our fall from Grace. Grace means gratis, free gift.
My next impetus for living moneyless came from observing the world economy and politics. Do our economy and politics function well? It’s self-evident, isn’t it?
My next impetus for living moneyless was to find authenticity for myself. To do out of one’s heart is to be real. To do for somebody, expecting something from them, is ulterior motivation, which is to not be real, which is to prostitute oneself.
My last impetus for living moneyless was to heal myself. Okay, I guess I’ll talk about my craziness. To heal myself was to first see myself as crazy, and only them could I become free of craziness. I was suffering clinical depression. Mental illness is rooted in having unnecessary, thoughts and to let go of unnecessary thoughts is to free oneself from mental illness. This is basic Buddhist philosophy. It is the philosophy of all the ancient religions. To cling to thoughts is to possess thoughts and this outwardly manifests itself in having unnecessary physical possessions. We accumulate what we don’t need out of fear and anxiety. This is true craziness. Unnecessary thoughts and unnecessary physical possessions (including possessing people) are inextricably linked. To accumulate unnecessary possessions is not to live in abundance, as we’re led to believe, but is to live in scarcity. Why would we have too much stuff if we believed the universe was abundant? Why would we worry if we weren’t crazy? Worry is simply lack of faith, faith that everything we need is in the here and now.
4) Your spirituality is clearly an important part of your journey. In what ways, have your spiritual beliefs strengthened you for this journey and lifestyle?
I mentioned above that this is about faith. Faith is eliminating unnecessary thought, trusting that everything we need comes as we need it, whether it is the right thoughts or the right possessions. Faith is being grounded in the Eternal Present. This is the common truth of the world’s religions.
5) What are some of the most important lessons about money/people/society you have personally learned over the past 12 years? And did any of these lessons surprise you?
Most important is that I’ve learned our true nature lives moneyless, giving freely and receiving freely. Even the most staid CEO is human underneath, and gives and receives freely with friends and family. By cultivating this nature in myself, I can see it in others, and it can be cultivated in others. When our real selves are cultivated, the gift economy is cultivated, our unreal selves (based on ulterior motivation) and all the nonsense drops away.
I have been surprised at the intensely angry reaction thousands of people have had at my living moneyless. It used to bother me, but now I realize that anger doesn’t come from people’s true nature, but from the facade they build up. The facade is threatened by reality. Who wants to hear that the basis of our commercial civilization is an illusion? Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists. Money is not a physical substance, but merely a belief in the head. Money is credit, and credit literally means belief (e.g. credibility). Money is literally a creed, the most agreed-upon creed, or religion, in the world. And what fundamentalists won’t get angry if you question their creed?
6) The reality of today’s society is that most people will never make the full leap into moneylessness like you have. Do you believe that your lifestyle still offers important inspiration for individuals and families? And if so, in what ways?
As I said, we all live moneyless at our core, in our everyday actions with friends, family, and even strangers. People tell me almost every day that they find living this way inspiring and even comforting. Even if people don’t intend on giving up money, they can still find that it isn’t the end of the world if they lose their money. If you are not religious, it is comforting to be reminded that life has flourished in balance for millions of years without money, and why should it fall apart without money now? Nature evolved you from an amoeboid to a human over millions of years, with zero money, so why should nature give up on you now? How is it that, when natural disasters (tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis) hit towns and cities, people suddenly forget about money and start helping each other? It’s comforting that we have a true nature beneath the falseness and ulterior motivation of commercial civilization.
And if you are religious, it’s comforting to know there is profound truth at the core of your religion (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Sikh) that actually works if you practice it, that it isn’t all a lie. If we don’t practice the core truth of giving up possessions and ulterior motivation that every religion teaches, then of course our religion becomes a destructive lie, as we see all around us.
7) What are the practical steps individuals can take to free themselves from their pursuit (and bondage) to money – even if they will never live entirely moneyless?
People get overwhelmed unless they realize that all the tools they have are here and now, and steps can be taken right here and now.
Everybody, no matter how entrenched they are in the money system, can freely give and freely receive. Freely giving and freely receiving is our true nature, is true human-ness. And everybody is human. As I said earlier, it’s about being real, cultivating our true nature, and everything else falls into place, and all the falsehood drops away, no matter what station in life people are in. Even if somebody is totally skeptical about what I am doing, I challenge them to make it their goal to be totally real, with themselves and with every human interaction, and I propose they will then know whether or not I’m living a pipe dream.
Somebody once commented that our cities and towns could not function without money. But I say they and the world can’t function right now in the present system.
Take classic American suburbia, for example. People don’t know their neighbors, and everybody has their own cars, computers, TVs, lawn mowers, washing machines, etc, etc, as well as stockpiles of food and land they could grow food on. All we need is right here, but the only thing that’s holding us back is not physical reality, but belief, dogma. What if we actually spoke to our neighbors and agreed to share, like we learned in kindergarten and in church? What if we realized we could share cars, computers, washing machines, have dinners together, etc, which would not only save us expense, but would save expense on the environment, and, as a bonus, put smiles on our lonely faces? Then cities and technology would start serving us, rather than us serving them. But what’s holding us back? Not reality, not scarcity, but only our thinking!
As far as going all the way and living without money, people often ask me to teach them survival skills. Often I feel like I don’t know many skills, that it’s really about determination and getting up the confidence more than actual skill. Sometimes I tell folks to imagine something really silly: what if somebody offered you a million dollars to live without money for a year? I guarantee most people would figure out how to do it, skilled or no. This is about finding a determination, a motivation greater than a million dollars!
8) I’m curious how concerned you are about spreading this message of living free from money. I know you had the book written about you, you maintain your website, and you have agreed to this interview and various others. Is there a message you believe you have inside that is important to get out? And do you look forward to your story continuing to spread?
Yes, I now have a strong urge to spread the message. At first I just wanted to live my own life, whether or not anybody else took notice or not. Then I realized a message was errupting in me that I could no more suppress than an erupting volcano. Our society is not sustainable and we are not only heading rapidly into, but most the world has already reached disaster, due directly to our being trapped by our own beliefs. I want to shout this out to the world. But talk isn’t enough. It must be talk with action, right now. We could debate whether or not Paul Revere was trying to gain attention for himself, or we could simply take notice that the British are invading and we have to get off our butts!
Thanks so much for your time Daniel, I really do appreciate it. Your experience is unique – at least, in our society. As a result, it provides each of us an opportunity to reevaluate your own opinions and views on how we choose to live. And for that, I am very thankful.
—
To discover more about Daniel’s specific journey or find the answers to the questions swirling in your head, I’ll refer you to the FAQ on his website.
But before you leave, what parts of Daniel’s story resonated most with you? Did you discover any new insight or inspiration during the interview? Let us know in the comment section below. I’m interested to hear how his story is challenging others.
Tasmanian Minimalist says
To accumulate unnecessary possessions is not to live in abundance, as we’re led to believe, but is to live in scarcity. Why would we have too much stuff if we believed the universe was abundant? Oh my goodness- the penny in my head, that has been stuck in the slot for so long- finally dropped. I love this interview and ideas.
Steven says
Awesome interview. Thanks guys!
Rebecca says
As a librarian, I can’t help but register my disappointment that some would think that Daniel’s use of a public library would be “cheating” in some way. The fundamental purpose of public libraries is to provide access to information and resources to everyone regardless of social or economic status. Even if a person were to accrue late fees, many libraries will forgive fees in exchange for volunteer hours if an individual is unable to pay. To the best of my knowledge, the only people who have ever been barred from using my library are people who have threatened and/or stalked staff members.
Additionally, funding formulas for libraries differ greatly and many are surprised to learn that there are libraries that run on mostly donations. For example, the only tax money that is guaranteed to the public library where I work is from the state. That money amounts to only 12% of our operating budget. Local municipalities do give money to the library, however it is up to them how much we receive. Essentially, we have to prove to each municipality that we are a worthwhile service and the most reliable way of doing that is by letting them know just how many people rely on library resources. So in our case, a person who regularly visits the library to check out materials and/or attend programs but doesn’t contribute financially could potentially have a stronger impact on our funding than a person who lives in the community and pays taxes, but has never stepped foot in the library. I think it’s also important to note that while municipalities give us money, that money does not make up the entirety of our 88% budget gap and that historically, individuals that support libraries the most financially (through donations and fundraisers) are usually not library users. If people are still miffed about this, Daniel could donate his time through volunteering or leading a program (about living without money, perhaps) and easily “pay” for his library usage that way.
In short, public libraries are natural havens for people like Daniel and are physical manifestations of what he is trying to accomplish. Libraries deal with money out of necessity, but work on the principles that would be fundamental to a money-less existence.
Please be sure to support your local public library by utilizing its resources, volunteering your time, attending programs, donating materials, writing politicians and letting them know just how important your library is to your community, and, yes, by donating money if you can swing it. And remember that libraries are there to support you! Don’t be afraid to suggest materials or potential programs that you would be interested in seeing at your library!
Prof Wolford says
This interview is probably the most challenging and important personal email I’ve received in a year–now that is a pity.
I did this from 1971-1975 and it was the most spiritual time of my life. Had I not done that, it is unlikely that I would ever have subscribed to a minimalist newsletter. Daniel brings up warm & fuzzy solid memories of my time without a care. Oh yes, it can be done, though the Great Operational Venue makes it harder, he verifies it is still available today for those who want it. I started in the same way; walked off and left it all. Still alive:-)
The years have taken me in and out of the illusion of security, money, and such, yet I keep returning to this state of ‘own nothing, owe nothing.’ When un-distracted, peace finds me quickly and I like that.
Go Daniel! Keep on keeping on. You rekindled my fire today. Thank you.
Mark Brickley says
Of course Daniel is admirable but I have to say that I resonate much more strongly with the things you are doing. I don’t think money pre se is our problem since many of us still need to have relationships outside of our immediate circle and that does involve money often but rather that we need to recalibrate our use of money, as you say to become more intentional in how we use it. I am merely a beginner at this game but I see such potential in using our resources including our wealth to change the world for the better while gaining clarity and space for ourselves. Frankly that is exciting.
Gene Jennings says
Very interesting interview, Joshua. Thanks for sharing.
Daniel’s views on Jesus and poverty are common. I think Jesus chose to be a minimalist. I don’t think he was poor, however. Here’s a quick read about Jesus and his disciples in regards to their income and material possessions.
http://www.questforanewperspective.com/personal-development/was-jesus-poor-or-was-he-a-minimalist/
Suelo says
If my views on Jesus & poverty are common, I’m still looking for the people who hold them. I don’t seem to run into or even hear of any but a rare few.
I agree with you that Jesus chose to be a minimalist, and that he was not poor, if by *poor* you mean *lacking*. One who owns more than he/she needs is lacking, and one who works for money rather than the heart is also lacking (poor).
But Jesus redefined what we think of as *poor* to be abundant, blessed:
“Blessed are you poor,
for yours is the Kingdom of God.
. . . . But woe to you who are rich,
for you have received your credit.”
–Jesus (Luke 6:24)
But Gene’s article you link to would be funny if I knew he were joking. If you take scripture as accurate, all his statements about Jesus are assumptions, not based on any scripture. Even his statement that Jesus was a carpenter has no merit (his surrogate father was actually a stonemason, ‘techton.’ But even that doesn’t mean Jesus was a stonemason. Jesus preached breaking ties with earthly fathers). No where is there anything that indicated Jesus worked for money, but it’s stated he did receive sustenance from women who donated to him. And he blatantly tells his disciples to go out without money or purse, and to freely receive food and shelter (not money) as “hire.” A bit more Bible quoting:
“Whoever of you
does not forsake all that he possesses
cannot be My disciple.”
–Jesus (Luke 14:33)
“Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me. . . .
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
— Jesus (Mark 10:17-30)
“No servant can serve two masters,
for either he will hate the one
and love the other,
or he will be devoted to the one
and despise the other.
You cannot work for God and money.”
The Pharisees, who were lovers of money,
heard all these things,
and they ridiculed Jesus.
(Luke 16:13-14)
I could go on with droves of more examples.
But maybe Gene is right. That would mean Jesus was a hypocrite, not practicing what he preached, which would be right in tune with his millions of “followers” today.
Gene Jennings says
Daniel,
I’m impressed that you’re spending so much time here in the comments section. I appreciate you continuing the conversation/interview. You’re right. I make some assumptions about Jesus that are not in the Bible. My assumptions are based on the culture of his day.
One of the reasons I follow Joshua and write on my own site is because we need to see and understand Jesus’ perspective on life. I think the Bible is clear that he lived a simple yet influential life. I wish more people did so.
I would love for more people to have Jesus’ understanding of material things. We (Americans and those in other wealthy nations) are spoiled rotten. We are rich beyond belief. Check out http://www.globalrichlist.com for a wake-up call.
In my opinion, Jesus was not a hypocrite. His leaders and followers are doing a poor job of practicing what he preached.
Suelo says
Thanks, Gene.
Yes, I’ve never spent so much time in anybody else’s blog comments before. This is the maybe the 1st blog I’ve ever seen in which every single commenter seems thoughtful & sincere, and I don’t feel my own comments are in vain here. You attract them well, Joshua! :-)
I was having assumptions, too, Gene, that maybe you were pushing the tired “God wants you rich” philosophy, and painting Jesus as such, that has swept over America today. But then you were saying Jesus was minimalist, so this tweeked my curiosity. I’m not opposed to people who happen to get paid money for work they already like to do, and I’m open to the possibility Jesus could have had some paid job, at least before his last 3 years (it seems very impossible he could have had paid work those last 3 years of intense public free service).
Gene Jennings says
Oh my! Please don’t put me in the “God wants you to be rich!” camp! :)
Gretchen says
This is the first I had heard of Daniel. I had no idea that people were choosing to live without money, not just him but many people around the world. The part of this that struck me the most was his description of people living in suburbia who don’t know their neighbors. I know my neighbors as far a waving at them and having a short conversation with them, but how do I take that step to actually get to know them? That’s scary because I would have to push myself out of my comfort zone, which is probably why it’s easier for people to have their own possessions: it allows them to do what they want, when they want. Thanks for sharing his story.
Mark Brickley says
love your name Gretchen. Don’t know why and nothing to do with the post but thought that thought might make you smile :-)
qnaguru says
People hoard, because they are not sure – If others share when i am in need?
Socialism was an idea to solve this very problem. But it didn’t quite work.
Living Alone for an Individual May Work.
But for Large Societies, Groups of People?
But there are many Life Lessons here – without being judgemental.
Wonderful post.
Sarah says
Thanks for the great interview and lively comments discussion. I am particularly struck with Daniel’s observation linking excess thoughts (which can contribute to mental illness), and excess possessions. The idea that environments with less excess “stuff” are reflecting a healthier mental state. I’ve just started on my slow journey to minimalism, and I’m discovering that my thinking PRECEDES the actual clearing out of crap from my garage, attic, etc., rather than the other way around.
Melissa says
I love where Daniel said, “There is no consciousness of credit and debt in nature. Consciousness of credit and debt is knowledge of good and evil, valuing one thing and devaluing another. Consciousness of credit and debt is our fall from Grace.”
It felt so true when I read it. I am far from a minimalist, let alone a person who is ready to live moneyless, but these ideas are taking root within me. I have been raising my daughter to be a massive consumer and I’m trying to throttle back and encourage her to live through experiences not thing. Thank you so much for the inspiration!
Megyn @MinimalistMommi says
That quote is actually incorrect. Look up reciprocal altruism. Many social animal communities, actually do employ a tit-for-tat strategy.
Also, a certain group of monkeys (capuchins) have been taught to love money. If we didn’t have an innate tit-for-tat/reciprocal altruistic thinking method, there should be no reason monkeys can learn the value of money. Here is an article about that study: http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080611/full/news.2008.882.html
Lena says
I was just about to argue against you when I read what he said again. true. he states that there is no consciousness of debt. and I think that is wrong for the group of monkeys, but very true to the whole planet. the problem here is the scale. if you take the whole planet, there is no such thing as credit or debt in nature, but very much in human culture. if you teach a group of monkeys how to use poker chips however, I am quite sure they are “smart” enough to get the concept. I wonder why they didnt implement the system on all monkeys on this planet, but we humans did…
I think this is what rang the most bells in my head: money is the biggest creed on this planet. I knew that before, I just never put it into words like that.
Megyn @MinimalistMommi says
I think when it comes to “consciousness of debt” there are several highly intelligent animals who have this capability when it comes to dealing with their group members. There are an abundance of studies on reciprocal altruism to support the claim that some species are quite cognizant of why they help one but not another.
Suelo says
“Capuchin monkeys do not use tokens in the wild, so even if they can be taught things like very basic money skills and how to play an incredibly simple game of poker, these activities are restricted to human-orchestrated testing.”
http://news.discovery.com/animals/capuchin-monkeys-money.html
And, about barter: every action in the universe is a barter! This I am not denying! Barter happens automatically, exactly in the simultaneous moment. At the same time there is a pay-it-forward economy of delayed, unconscious rewards, there is also an instantaneous barter. An animal taking a raspberry is providing a needed service to the raspberry bush at the exact moment the raspberry is providing a service to the animal. Likewise, a lion taking a wildebeast from the herd is providing a service to the herd. The point is that the barter is NOT CONSCIOUS. When it becomes conscious, it becomes out of balance. When we start controlling barter, it becomes out of balance, as evidence all around us since the dawn of trade civilization reveals. Consciousness of credit & debt is a lack of trust that debt completely fulfills credit in the barter of the moment. The simultaneous union of credit and debt in every moment is the law of physics as well as of biology. But our perception has become incomplete, one-sided, dogmatic, so we think the animal “owes” the rapberry bush.
Megyn @ MinimalistMommi says
Here is one example of conscious trading: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090407-chimps-meat-sex.html
Conscious bartering happens much more frequently in the wild than humans would like to admit. Because we can not communicate in our language with other animals, most assume they lack higher cognitive functioning. To assume otherwise is anthropomorphising. However, anthropomorphising in some senses have led us to the research supporting the idea that many animals do, in fact, have higher capabilities, one of them being conscious bartering.
Suelo says
Thanks for more challenges to mull over, Megyn.
The studies about possible conscious barter among animals take many liberties with assumption, but so the same can be said for my theories. And theories they are.
I am aware also of Jane Goodall being denounced by many who wanted to believe chimps were peaceful, as she observed grizzly murderous behavior among them. There is danger of seeing what we want to believe, & your challenges are good for me. But it goes the other way, too. I see we are animals, part of nature, but I also can’t get around the fact there are behaviors, cruelty, & imbalance unique to us that utterly overshadow anything we see in the rest of nature, because we have figured out how to side-step natural selection (at least temporarily). Natural selection holds bad behavior in check. When natural selection is eliminated (temporarily), we get the horrors we see now. Positive & negative will ALWAYS be with us, by the universal laws of physics. If we delude ourselves into trying to eliminate negative, it will only crash back on us later in horror.
joshua becker says
Suelo, Special thanks to you for joining in this conversation, by the way. Disagreements are rarely (if ever) settled in a blog comment section. But the fact that you are not afraid to engage the conversation has been helpful. You’ve challenged us with your words and your time. Thanks again.
Suelo says
And I feel very grateful for your putting up this post, Joshua!
And I’m glad for the opportunity to have access to a computer right now to be in this follow-up discussion.