“Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists.” – Daniel Suelo
When I first heard the story of Daniel Suelo, I was immediately intrigued. After all, Daniel lives entirely without money and has done so for the past 12 years. In 2000, he put his entire life savings in a phone booth, walked away, and has lived moneyless ever since. Most frequently, he lives in the caves and wilderness of Utah where he eats wild vegetation, scavenges roadkill, pulls food from dumpsters, and is sometimes fed by friends and strangers. Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts.
I found myself very interested in hearing what he has learned from the experience and how it might inspire me in my own journey to live with fewer possessions. So I contacted Daniel to see if I could ask him a few questions about his life and what views on money and possessions have shaped his existence. He graciously agreed. This is how our conversation went:
1) Earlier this year, your story was documented in a book titled The Man Who Quit Money. I opened this interview with a brief introduction. Am I missing anything here Daniel? Anything I should be adding to help us get a better understanding of who you are and the life you have chosen to live?
I don’t care for the statement, “Daniel proudly boasts that he does not take food stamps or government handouts,” because it can be construed that I put myself above those who must take food stamps or government handouts. I don’t judge those who do. I merely mention that I don’t take government assistance for the sake of those who might think I’m living on their tax dollars. I do boast about having few possessions and no money, because it’s ironic fun to boast about nothing special (wild creatures, after all, have few possessions or money and it really feels like no big deal), and to boast about what the rest of our commercial society debases.
I will add that I do make a small exception to taking government handouts: I use the public library to maintain my blog, website, do emails, and read books. This does cause ire in people searching for loopholes in my lifestyle. In my blog comments, a woman once responded to their anger by declaring that she pays taxes and doesn’t use the library, and that she donates all her library time to me. Then they were quiet.
2) Thanks so much for taking the time for this interview. I find it interesting that so many of the articles highlighting your story include something similar to this line: Suelo “came from a good family and has been to college. He was not mentally ill, nor an addict. His decision appears to have been an act of free will by a competent adult.” So, for starters, you are clearly not a crazy man. Correct?
A crazy man does not think himself crazy, so my opinion on the matter is meaningless :-) People will have to judge my sanity for themselves.
But it would be nice if we lived in a world that considered it crazy to cause harm to ourselves, others, and our environment or to praise those who do cause such harm. Then we’d have to say we live in a truly crazy civilization. A sane society would consider it crazy to kill living things and destroy food and water supplies in order to amass something that nobody can eat or drink, like gold, silver, and money. It’s crazy to sacrifice reality to the idol of illusion.
3) The thinking that led to your journey into willful moneylessness evolved by degrees during your travels. Could you share with us some of the foundational beliefs that have evolved in your life that led you to make this decision to give up money entirely?
My first thought of living moneyless came when I was a child. In my Evangelical Christian upbringing, I wondered why, if we were followers of Jesus, we didn’t practice his teachings–namely giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward (money and barter), but giving freely and receiving freely.
When I left home for college, I studied other religions and found that all the world’s major religions teach giving up possessions and doing not for the sake of reward. If all the separated witnesses are saying the same thing, it must be true. Ironically, few practice the one thing they all agree upon in word. What would happen if we actually practiced this stuff, I thought.
My dad also took us camping a lot, and I was a nature freak. I couldn’t help but see how perfectly balanced nature was, and it ran on no money. Why, then, couldn’t we?
As an adult, I thought it through more thoroughly. Nature’s economy is a pay-it-forward economy. This means one sows, another reaps, ad infitum. For example, a bear takes a raspberry, and the raspeberry bush demands nothing in return. The Bear takes with zero sense of obligation, zero guilt. The bear then poops somewhere else, not only providing food for soil organisms, but also propagating raspberry seeds. You never see 2 wild creatures consciously bartering. There are no accountants worrying what the bush will get in return. This is exactly why it works, because nobody knows how it works! There is no consciousness of credit and debt in nature. Consciousness of credit and debt is knowledge of good and evil, valuing one thing and devaluing another. Consciousness of credit and debt is our fall from Grace. Grace means gratis, free gift.
My next impetus for living moneyless came from observing the world economy and politics. Do our economy and politics function well? It’s self-evident, isn’t it?
My next impetus for living moneyless was to find authenticity for myself. To do out of one’s heart is to be real. To do for somebody, expecting something from them, is ulterior motivation, which is to not be real, which is to prostitute oneself.
My last impetus for living moneyless was to heal myself. Okay, I guess I’ll talk about my craziness. To heal myself was to first see myself as crazy, and only them could I become free of craziness. I was suffering clinical depression. Mental illness is rooted in having unnecessary, thoughts and to let go of unnecessary thoughts is to free oneself from mental illness. This is basic Buddhist philosophy. It is the philosophy of all the ancient religions. To cling to thoughts is to possess thoughts and this outwardly manifests itself in having unnecessary physical possessions. We accumulate what we don’t need out of fear and anxiety. This is true craziness. Unnecessary thoughts and unnecessary physical possessions (including possessing people) are inextricably linked. To accumulate unnecessary possessions is not to live in abundance, as we’re led to believe, but is to live in scarcity. Why would we have too much stuff if we believed the universe was abundant? Why would we worry if we weren’t crazy? Worry is simply lack of faith, faith that everything we need is in the here and now.
4) Your spirituality is clearly an important part of your journey. In what ways, have your spiritual beliefs strengthened you for this journey and lifestyle?
I mentioned above that this is about faith. Faith is eliminating unnecessary thought, trusting that everything we need comes as we need it, whether it is the right thoughts or the right possessions. Faith is being grounded in the Eternal Present. This is the common truth of the world’s religions.
5) What are some of the most important lessons about money/people/society you have personally learned over the past 12 years? And did any of these lessons surprise you?
Most important is that I’ve learned our true nature lives moneyless, giving freely and receiving freely. Even the most staid CEO is human underneath, and gives and receives freely with friends and family. By cultivating this nature in myself, I can see it in others, and it can be cultivated in others. When our real selves are cultivated, the gift economy is cultivated, our unreal selves (based on ulterior motivation) and all the nonsense drops away.
I have been surprised at the intensely angry reaction thousands of people have had at my living moneyless. It used to bother me, but now I realize that anger doesn’t come from people’s true nature, but from the facade they build up. The facade is threatened by reality. Who wants to hear that the basis of our commercial civilization is an illusion? Money only exists if two or more people believe it exists. Money is not a physical substance, but merely a belief in the head. Money is credit, and credit literally means belief (e.g. credibility). Money is literally a creed, the most agreed-upon creed, or religion, in the world. And what fundamentalists won’t get angry if you question their creed?
6) The reality of today’s society is that most people will never make the full leap into moneylessness like you have. Do you believe that your lifestyle still offers important inspiration for individuals and families? And if so, in what ways?
As I said, we all live moneyless at our core, in our everyday actions with friends, family, and even strangers. People tell me almost every day that they find living this way inspiring and even comforting. Even if people don’t intend on giving up money, they can still find that it isn’t the end of the world if they lose their money. If you are not religious, it is comforting to be reminded that life has flourished in balance for millions of years without money, and why should it fall apart without money now? Nature evolved you from an amoeboid to a human over millions of years, with zero money, so why should nature give up on you now? How is it that, when natural disasters (tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis) hit towns and cities, people suddenly forget about money and start helping each other? It’s comforting that we have a true nature beneath the falseness and ulterior motivation of commercial civilization.
And if you are religious, it’s comforting to know there is profound truth at the core of your religion (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Sikh) that actually works if you practice it, that it isn’t all a lie. If we don’t practice the core truth of giving up possessions and ulterior motivation that every religion teaches, then of course our religion becomes a destructive lie, as we see all around us.
7) What are the practical steps individuals can take to free themselves from their pursuit (and bondage) to money – even if they will never live entirely moneyless?
People get overwhelmed unless they realize that all the tools they have are here and now, and steps can be taken right here and now.
Everybody, no matter how entrenched they are in the money system, can freely give and freely receive. Freely giving and freely receiving is our true nature, is true human-ness. And everybody is human. As I said earlier, it’s about being real, cultivating our true nature, and everything else falls into place, and all the falsehood drops away, no matter what station in life people are in. Even if somebody is totally skeptical about what I am doing, I challenge them to make it their goal to be totally real, with themselves and with every human interaction, and I propose they will then know whether or not I’m living a pipe dream.
Somebody once commented that our cities and towns could not function without money. But I say they and the world can’t function right now in the present system.
Take classic American suburbia, for example. People don’t know their neighbors, and everybody has their own cars, computers, TVs, lawn mowers, washing machines, etc, etc, as well as stockpiles of food and land they could grow food on. All we need is right here, but the only thing that’s holding us back is not physical reality, but belief, dogma. What if we actually spoke to our neighbors and agreed to share, like we learned in kindergarten and in church? What if we realized we could share cars, computers, washing machines, have dinners together, etc, which would not only save us expense, but would save expense on the environment, and, as a bonus, put smiles on our lonely faces? Then cities and technology would start serving us, rather than us serving them. But what’s holding us back? Not reality, not scarcity, but only our thinking!
As far as going all the way and living without money, people often ask me to teach them survival skills. Often I feel like I don’t know many skills, that it’s really about determination and getting up the confidence more than actual skill. Sometimes I tell folks to imagine something really silly: what if somebody offered you a million dollars to live without money for a year? I guarantee most people would figure out how to do it, skilled or no. This is about finding a determination, a motivation greater than a million dollars!
8) I’m curious how concerned you are about spreading this message of living free from money. I know you had the book written about you, you maintain your website, and you have agreed to this interview and various others. Is there a message you believe you have inside that is important to get out? And do you look forward to your story continuing to spread?
Yes, I now have a strong urge to spread the message. At first I just wanted to live my own life, whether or not anybody else took notice or not. Then I realized a message was errupting in me that I could no more suppress than an erupting volcano. Our society is not sustainable and we are not only heading rapidly into, but most the world has already reached disaster, due directly to our being trapped by our own beliefs. I want to shout this out to the world. But talk isn’t enough. It must be talk with action, right now. We could debate whether or not Paul Revere was trying to gain attention for himself, or we could simply take notice that the British are invading and we have to get off our butts!
Thanks so much for your time Daniel, I really do appreciate it. Your experience is unique – at least, in our society. As a result, it provides each of us an opportunity to reevaluate your own opinions and views on how we choose to live. And for that, I am very thankful.
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To discover more about Daniel’s specific journey or find the answers to the questions swirling in your head, I’ll refer you to the FAQ on his website.
But before you leave, what parts of Daniel’s story resonated most with you? Did you discover any new insight or inspiration during the interview? Let us know in the comment section below. I’m interested to hear how his story is challenging others.
Kent @ The Financial Philosopher says
A reader of my blog sent me a link to this interview and I’ve read every word and comment. To put my thoughts simply, I love it! Thanks to Joshua for the interview and to Mr. Suelo for your teachings. I look forward to reading your site and to learning more of your conscious lifestyle choices.
I’m a philosopher who happens to be an investment advisor/financial planner. Ironically, my years of observing clients and other advisors, combined with my reading of ancient and modern philosophy, has taught me money is not the root of all evil but rather the most efficient means of losing oneself.
There is no greater pursuit than authenticity. However, it is the material world that covers Being (spirit, nature, the authentic self). For this reason, it is rare for most people to find themselves, to live consciously. Often it requires a natural disaster, a divorce, a bankruptcy or a near-death experience for an individual to awaken from the false dream, the illusion of ego and construction of social conventions.
You are truly a philosopher Mr. Suelo. I appreciate your message and will do my best to spread the same philosophies to whomever I encounter.
“It seems to me more and more that the philosopher, as a necessary man of tomorrow and the day after tomorrow, has always found himself, and always had to find himself, in opposition of his today…” ~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Naiyaru says
Wow what a wonderful interview, and what a brave vision! I am reading Into The Wild at the moment, and I think a lot about a ‘middle way’ in these stories and the way we live now. I love the idea of sharing, it makes you a richer person, I know for a fact, the more I share the more real, authentic I become. It’s a bumpy road, but a rewarding one.
I once picked up this book ‘How I lived of a Pound a day’ http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Lived-Year-Just-Pound/dp/1906593124 an English woman trying – and succeeding – to live of 1 pound (dollar) a day. It’s not a practice I’d advice everyone to take up, but her experiences are very inspiring, especially how she has a great social live without spending money!
Thank you for sharing this story, and your other blogs. You are an inspiration to me!
Brad Buechner says
This story is totally awesome, and so is this website and so you are! Thanks so much for sharing your words with the world. I feel quite fortunate to have come across this story today as I too have been living without money for about 2 months now – not quite in the same way as this legendary man, but living off the land in my own urban way.
Seriously though – fantastic article and hope to hear more good things. I’m a big advocate for minimalism, simplicity, and basically that the best things in life are free! So much over-stimulation…not enough time to take time, slow down, and appreciate the free, beautiful treasures all throughout the world and in ourselves.
Pam says
Daniel Suelo, you are soooo awesome! =)
Joshua, thank you for this inspiring article!!
Danette True says
Thank you to Daniel Suelo http://zerocurrency.blogspot.com/ for sharing your insights and to Joshua Becker @joshua_becker for sharing this fascinating interview. I just curated this to my blog site danettetrue.com. Hopefully more and more people will read this and begin thinking/rethinking their place on this planet because “It’s crazy to sacrifice reality to the idol of illusion.”
Barry says
It would be a grand way to lose weight.. But as far as no money I see using the library as kind a source of a monetary nature. Someone paid to print the book, ink, electrical power. Lights to see.. He needs to build his own generator from things out of the earth. Build his own library out of nature. Until he does this he is using money..
Joyce says
There is a lot in my life today that is unnecessary. Keeping it real is something that stuck out to me. Thanks for this interview it’s a breath of fresh air.
Emily says
Very interesting article. I’ve been trying to get myself away from “needing” and thus, purchasing, so many things. One question: what about health care – preventative care, dental care, etc.? If you haven’t received care, do you feel like what you’re doing now is working and keeping you pretty healthy?
Noelle Imparato says
This is such a fantastic story. Thank you Daniel for living your life according to your beliefs and thank you all involved for spreading his message. It is very inspiring to see that living moneylessly can be done, although I have a few reservations about it.
First Daniel is single and healthy. We could hardly imagine a family of 4, or a person with disease or disability living in caves and scavenging for food. Then in nature, animals do build nests and protect their territory. Even birds! There is an Osprey nest in front of my house on the Chesapeake Bay and I can observe them all day long from my living-room window. I was very surprised to witness how they chase away other big birds – such as geese, white cranes, eagles, or gulls – from taking over their nest or from simply roaming around “their” little cove. While roosting on her eggs, the female is on an alert mode, constantly looking around 360 degree, and squeaking repeatedly at the first possible threat, calling for her mate to come home to the rescue. So life – even in the wild – requires a minimum of organization. That’s what society is supposed to do.
Now the question is how to organize a society that is based on the notion that we are all in this together. Basically to see life on the planet, and certainly human life as ONE, as one large body, with each individual being like a cell. Each cell is meant to participate, cooperate in the well-being of the body at large, just like each cell of our human body has its specific chore to participate in the good functioning of the person. So the foot does not complain that it is stepped on, nor does the heart try to horde all the blood for itself. Each cell or organ is built to participate in the wellness of the whole body. That’s what our society needs to place as the first and foremost value. From that perspective, things would fall into place in a creative way, with or without money — after all, a form of money exchange existed before paper money was invented, in the form of sea shells exchange or the likes. Money is supposed to facilitate exchange, not horde other people’s life energy. So I love this article because it raises a great subject, but in my opinion THE most important shift will come when we see ourselves as part of the larger body of life instead of just “separate, self-centered” individuals. Humanity has to evolve from its current egocentric vision into a larger sense of identity.
Michael says
This is an excellent analogy. Check out my comment thread on this stellar program by Michael Sandel. I explain how morality, ethics and the like can be computed, possibly ending all this endless debate. Combining Michael Sandel, Chis Alexander and possibly my ideas might give an answer.
http://www.justiceharvard.org/2011/03/what-is-moral-character/#IDComment378737663
MaryAnn says
Dear PV and Lena,
Please don’t be troubled by my opinion. I guess thinking, considering, accepting others’ points of view are not strong suits in your neighbourhood. Have a wee lie down. You’ll feel better. And in the end, neither you opinion nor mine matters at all. ;)
It takes all kinds! Live with it or ignore it!
Lena says
haha, now you made me laugh, ignorance is bliss, I guess.
I take the first option, I will live with it. and I will try to change my neighbourhood, even if it doesnt matter anyway. ;-)